Should i put a 20B in the starion???

[Starion VR4]

DOHC 2.4.... havent seen to many, use a 2.4L block/bottom end, the block is 7mm taller than a 2L, so the pistons aren't so short. better, less noise as the pistons go over the top, less slap. :beer

[mitch]

Do you think it would be better than a built up 2.6?

[Starion VR4]

2.6L are good as well, jus as long as U delete the balance shafts, usea magna head, bigger posts, better combustion camber, late model TP on heads R the go, they can make good power, but the timing chain is a problem, I would use 1 but only if I could convert it 2 belt drive. I used a new sprocket/chain kit on my turbo magna elite, it lasted 6mths B4 it got the chain rattle we all hate, I didn't look any further but i believe the sigma range of engines had a ratchet type adjuster which would stop the rattle at start up. A quiet engine is what I am on about. I HATE THE TIMING CHAIN RATTLE!!!! :beer

[mitch]

What is the 2l block with a 2.4 crank like? cause it would be easier for rego. Last year the belt on my vr4 engine jumped 2 teeth(retarded) and was lucky nothing bent on it. Would a built up motor be reliable cause everything will be new?

[Mr Ralliart]

If you're after torque , the Engine you already have is all you need .

My Evo III's Engine has absolutely bugger all done to it (all standard inside ) and it makes over 800nm at the wheels . Everyone who goes for a ride in it shits themselves .

I know plenty of guys here and in Japan who have similar and also guys with 10 sec street cars with really basic set ups .

The 20B would be a very expensive exercise .

4G63s rule .

[Mick]

hear hear

[CussCuss]

sorry, theres no such thing as NM at the wheels, the only thing you will get is either tractive effort wich i can get 2000 in my corolla if i put it in first or a calculation of NM at the engine minus the drivetrain loss.

If want the ultimate with the least fucking around it will be a 2.4 or 2.3 stroker as said previously. Not much bolts into the starion so when something this good does, you should take advantage of it.

[mitch]

I LIKE A CHALLENGE AND DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT. wHAT ABOUT USING SA SONATA CRANK AS I UNDERSTAND THE SONATA BLOCK IS THE SAME HEIGHT AS THE 2L, AND NOT LONGER LIKE THE 4G54. tHEREFORE USING THE SONATA CRANK IN A 2L BLOCK FOR A 2.4 CAPACITY STILL. ANY THOUGHTS

[AB]

sorry, theres no such thing as NM at the wheels, the only thing you will get is either tractive effort wich i can get 2000 in my corolla if i put it in first or a calculation of NM at the engine minus the drivetrain loss.

According to wikipedia 'Tractive effort' is a measure of pulling force, how much weight you can pull, I don't think a dyno will ever tell you that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractive_effort

Why don't you think a dyno can measure torque at the wheels? I don't see how it would be any less fessible than measuring torque at the flywheel. The only difference is the torque is transfered through rollers rather than directly from the flywheel, and even then, there's those dynos that connect directly to the wheel hub with one dyno pack for each drive wheel, they're directly connected just like an engine dyno is.

[MrBishi]

2.6L are good as well, jus as long as U delete the balance shafts, usea magna head, bigger posts, better combustion camber, late model TP on heads R the go, they can make good power, but the timing chain is a problem, I would use 1 but only if I could convert it 2 belt drive. I used a new sprocket/chain kit on my turbo magna elite, it lasted 6mths B4 it got the chain rattle we all hate, I didn't look any further but i believe the sigma range of engines had a ratchet type adjuster which would stop the rattle at start up. A quiet engine is what I am on about. I HATE THE TIMING CHAIN RATTLE!!!! :beer

You need to get a good chain & new oil pump to keep it really quiet. Most of the 2.6 kits you buy have el-cheapo chains that go slack in no time. I bought a rollmaster kit that uses a good (best?) German chain 'IWIS' brand. All quiet on the western front so far.

[CussCuss]

sorry, theres no such thing as NM at the wheels, the only thing you will get is either tractive effort wich i can get 2000 in my corolla if i put it in first or a calculation of NM at the engine minus the drivetrain loss.

According to wikipedia 'Tractive effort' is a measure of pulling force, how much weight you can pull, I don't think a dyno will ever tell you that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractive_effort

Why don't you think a dyno can measure torque at the wheels? I don't see how it would be any less fessible than measuring torque at the flywheel. The only difference is the torque is transfered through rollers rather than directly from the flywheel, and even then, there's those dynos that connect directly to the wheel hub with one dyno pack for each drive wheel, they're directly connected just like an engine dyno is.

The dyno is measuring torque at the wheels, and torque at the wheels only.
However, the torque at the wheels is nowhere neer the torque at the engine because of things like diffs and gearboxes wich change the amount of torque that is put out at a sacrafice of rotation.
For example, in 4th you should be putting out around 3.5x the amount of torque at the engine to the wheels because of the diff only and 1:1 ratio of 4th. In first however (if you could find a dyno that could take it) you would put out approx 9x the amount of torque that the engine is producing.

Basically there is no such thing as torque at the wheels because when it gets to the wheels its gotta go thru gearing and the like. If you are seeing NM on a dyno sheet you will be seeing the N at the wheels divided by the diff ratio wich will get you the torque at the engine minus drivetrain loss and then with a nice calculation P = (Tq x rpm) / 5252 you will get your power at the wheels.

This brings in the whole dynoing in 3rd, changing the diff ratio argument. You should be able to if you have a competent dyno operator get the same measurement of power no matter what the diff ratio or gear its in if the dyno operator makes the right corrections because it will effect the torque at the wheels obviously but that as described as above, has to be messed with to figure out engine power.

So basically, yes, a dyno should tell you your power. But different dyno's (US vs AUS for example) will read different and also the competence of the dyno operator will affect it aswell. A dyno can be used as a wanking tool, but its best used as a tuning and also a comparison tool.


Jeebus ive had too much time to think about this previously, the whole torque vs power thing is another 5 pages hehe.

[Mr Ralliart]

I think that if Torque at the wheels and Torque measurements in general were so fudgeable and such a load of bullshit as you are suggesting , then I seriously doubt that ALL Car Manufacturers would be quoting them on every single vehicle they produce . And they wouldn't be so consistant and comparable either .
My car was Dynoed by AVO . I wouldn't think that they , and most other High Profile Tuning Shops , as well as Ralliart ,WRC Teams etc. , would be making fools of themselves by giving people Torque figures if there wasn't anything reliable to it .

Anyway ,I think maybe it's best to agree to disagree or this will never end .

At the end of the day , and to stay on topic , I have a 4G63 powered car with a few basic bolt on mods ( but stock inside , factory Turbo, IC etc.) that is capable of 11 sec quarter mile times , and can be driven daily with no reliability issues at all.

If you want brutal Torque with a wide Powerband and high rev capabilities , use the Engine you already have .

If you just want brutal Torque , put a 2.4 Crank in the Engine you already have .


Do what you want with your car Mitch , there's nothing wrong with being different .
Just make an informed decision so you don't end up with a nightmare :beer .

[CussCuss]

its not bullshit as such, it does mean something but it just technically doesnt exist because the amount of torque you are putting out is multiplied by the gearbox and the diff.

So what your getting is torque at the engine minus drivetrain loss, thats all. Power at the wheels is the same again.

As said, 2.4 will supply more than enough power than the chassis can handle, dohc would be the icing on the cake.

[mitch]

Thanks Mr Rilliart. I wont rush into anything but a 2.4 crank in my block seems a good idea so i wouldnt need to get it engineered or a ghange of number. What car do you have that runs 11's?. What sort of power could i achieve if tuned properly?

[EVN666]

sounds good i reckon. what will u do with the motor that is in it now?