Brake upgrade

Barney · Post by **Barney** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:14 pm

Hi People

I know there has been many post's regarding brake upgrades, but i have to get some advise on this.

when I spoke to guys at SST in perth, they suggested using a early Falcon disc and hub assembly (XA,XB,XC) as i am told that the hub bearings are the same and it will go straight on.

Then using Landcruiser calipers (4 Pot) with a fabricated mounting bracket.

This combination will result in a 5 stud front hub, so the rear will have to be re-drilled for 5 studs

Has anybody performed this type of up grade?
can you see any problems?
will the master cylinder be capable?

any advise would be appreciated

Regards

ASHLY

dokbob · Post by **dokbob** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:42 pm

as Cookie would say think of the weight!!!!!!!!!!

Barney · Post by **Barney** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:49 pm

I am more concerned about stopping from 200kp during speed events!

ASHLY

David · Post by **David** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:15 am

Barney, standard master cylinder should be fine... You probably don't need to upgrade your brakes unless you plan on doing extended racing events, but if you do, feel free to come down and have a look at my starion (in Midland) and we'll pull the front wheels off so you can have a better look.

They are 4-pot lockheed calipers on 5-stud starion disks...

As for the cylinder? Just a small non-boosted one. Stops allright from any speed. Does need more pressure than boosted tho'...

David

mrb1 · Post by **mrb1** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 5:50 pm

Barney,
just remove the backing plates, use proper pads and fluid and you won't have any problems. Yes with custom brakes it will be better but the standard setup works very well for club use.

NachoMan · Post by **NachoMan** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:47 pm

Or alternatively, if you didn't want to go through the hassle of changing your brake system, simply fit Bendix DB1141 (Hilux) pads to your fronts.
There is a very big difference in stopping power between these pads, and the standard Starion ones.

I hope to meet you at the, err, meet.

Paradoxx · Post by **Paradoxx** » Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:26 pm

Did u end up getting some fitted jas?

They're good rnt they :)

just warm them up for a little bit on cold mornings.

Barney · Post by **Barney** » Sun Aug 15, 2004 9:42 pm

Are you sure the standard brakes will handle 4- 5 laps around barbagello raceway with repeated hard stops from over 200kph :?

If I buy new rims (small selection) to suit the standard 4 stud setup and the brakes don"t perform well enough, i wont be happy :(

But!

If I upgrade my brakes (calipers + disc) and fit 5 stud hubs then get rims to suit (large selection) i am pretty much guarenteed they will perfrom well

I have checked out the cast 4 spot Wilwood calipers now I want them :D
Quoted $770 is this about right?

David PM sent

Thanks for the advise guy's I appreciate it

ASHLY

dirty sanchez · Post by **dirty sanchez** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:37 am

Barney,

I've been down the path of upgraded pads/brake fluid, it's fine for road use but I've found that it's simply not good enough for track use. For people who drive on different tracks, don't have as much power or as sticky tyres or who have lightened their car may have other opinions but in my experience the brakes get hot, then they start to fade, then they start to glow, then they throw off sparks and flames. Great for the spectators but not great for lap times and the scrutineers certainly weren't impressed.

The Wilwood upgrade is really pretty cheap, you should be able to dig up the calipers a fair bit cheaper than $700 (they probably won't be much more expensive than good condition Landcruiser calipers). See if you can get the brake rotors secondhand from a jap importer or wrecker, and dig up the master cylinder from a domestic wrecker. It will cost you more than the Falcon/Landcruiser option but I imagine it will be a far better result as neither the Landcruiser nor the XA/XB/XC falcon were considered to have good brakes. If you're not happy with the end result you could always sell the brake upgrade as a kit to someone on this forum, I'm sure there will be plenty of interest.

I'm in the process of upgrading to the Wilwood calipers and NSX brake rotors at the moment. I have finally found the correct master cylinder (the part number in the tech file is incorrect) and am having the brake lines made up now and I'll let you know what the end result is.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:09 pm

whats the story with the part number, and who is making up your brake lines?

dirty sanchez · Post by **dirty sanchez** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:52 pm

I can't be absolutely certain until I get the master cylinder into my hot little hands, but I believe the correct part number is JB1775. This is a 17/16 inch tokico master cylinder for a 88-96 Nissan Patrol. I got a diagram from Nissan and it appears to be absolutely identical to that in the picture (including the electrical connector in the picture). It's also bloody expensive!!!

Just out of interest I might mention that I spoke to PBR trying to get a picture of the part. They wanted to know why I wanted the diagram so I told them what I was doing - the said "were not interested in having anything to do with modified cars". Hmmmm....

Steve is getting the brake lines made up, $160 for the front lines in ADR approved braided line. This includes each line in 2 sections, one section from the inner guard to the strut, then the next section from there to the caliper.

The best price I could get for making up the bracket was $220 to cut them to size, drill them and tap a thread to the caliper mounting holes.

After all the time, effort and expense these had better be bloody good brakes

mrb1 · Post by **mrb1** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:14 pm

dirty sanchez wrote:Barney,
I've been down the path of upgraded pads/brake fluid, it's fine for road use but I've found that it's simply not good enough for track use. For people who drive on different tracks, don't have as much power or as sticky tyres or who have lightened their car may have other opinions but in my experience the brakes get hot, then they start to fade, then they start to glow, then they throw off sparks and flames. Great for the spectators but not great for lap times and the scrutineers certainly weren't impressed.

We used to do ten lap races at Calder and brake from 220 KPH for a second gear corner at the end of the main straight with STANDARD brakes! This was in "road reg" racing against RX3, RX4 with Volvo 4 spots etc, etc.
This was with full COMPETITION pads, COMPETITION brake fluid and with backing plates removed (MUST BE or the discs WILL overheat!!!!!).
Also do a 300 Km race around Winton (admittedly Winton not hard on brakes).

Any sort of high perfomance road pad is a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME on the track for serious use they get WAY too hot.

For normal club track use the standard brakes are FINE with the CORRECT preparation !!!!!!!!

If you are building a club car say like Cookies yeh go for it. But I strongly resist the idea that the standard brakes are no good for casual track use.

Barney · Post by **Barney** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:43 am

:? :? :? :? :?

dirty sanchez · Post by **dirty sanchez** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:01 pm

Maybe I'm just harder on my brakes than other people. With backing plates removed, Yokie AO32R semi-slicks and Castrol Responce fluid (I don't remember what pads) the brakes looked like this:
www.nttkd.org.au/hot_brakes.jpg

I've found that it's not so much how fast you are going when you perform one stop, it's how many stops, how close togeather and how hard you accelerate between stops.

MRB1 is obviously satisfied with the modified standard brake setup he has, and there's a lot to be said for keeping the factory setup (road legal, no need to get the car engineered, much cheaper, etc). I probably do nearly as many competition/track kms as I do road kms and for me the brakes get far too hot and don't have enough power or feel even when they are in their operating range. But of course, that's just my opinion.

Update on my brake upgrade: the braided brake lines and mounting plates have been made up, master cylinder, calipers and pads have arrived so now all I'm waiting for is the rotors which should arrive next week. The rotors originally had to be sent back because DBA forgot to slot them.

mrb1 · Post by **mrb1** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:14 pm

dirty sanchez wrote:Maybe I'm just harder on my brakes than other people. With backing plates removed, Yokie AO32R semi-slicks and Castrol Responce fluid (I don't remember what pads) the brakes looked like this:
www.nttkd.org.au/hot_brakes.jpg

I've found that it's not so much how fast you are going when you perform one stop, it's how many stops, how close togeather and how hard you accelerate between stops.

I respect dirty sanchez's opinion and experiences because he is getting out there and doing stuff. I would add that brake pad selection is critical.

Barney sorry about the debate!!!! But I think the Falcon stuff would be WAY too heavy.

Austarion

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