the shit going down in iraq
Dont forget guys that even though we had no gripe with the Iraqis we are a huge country with not many people to defend it. If we didnt have the US as allies we would be useless at defending our own country. Because of the fact we cant afford a huge defence force both logistical and personnel we need to keep up appearances in times of unrest. If US goes into battle and they ask for support then can you imagine what would happen if the government said no? Imagine then if australia was attacked by the other major power and its allies there's no way we can defend ourselves and if we ask for help it'll be "well you guys didnt help us when we wanted it so get fucked". It's not just the current issues you have to look at, it's the future of this country aswell. I cant say i have much of an opinion of what the US is doing in Iraq, all i know is that we have plenty of australian troops just like us over there fighting for our security and interests (i may be one of them myself in the not too distant future). They are there because we have a responsibility to our allies.
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Jesusdroveawestfield
- christian moderator
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:13 am
reason
finally paradoxx a voice of reason. As for the rest of it lets just agree to disagree shall we.
And as for your question
Do I consider somebody who holds no value in human life, who would rape my daughter and kill my son because I do not believe in theri religion. Who kills innocent woman and children because they are too gutless to confront military targets, who flys planes into buildings filled with thousand of people from hundreds of different countries, who kills another soldier in battle ( justified ) but then continues to dismember him and drag him through the streets, who kidnaps civillians, who gases thousand of kurds because they are not Suni Muslims, who pays a bounty to any terrorists family if they are killed in a "Jihad"
to be worth less than somebody who values life, who loves people, who goes out of their way to assist anybody. Then the answer must be yes.
Sorry but how can you compare the two and please dont give me the retoric about they are just defending their country. Spain was not a threat to them, the office workers were no threat , the Israeli olympians were no threat. They were all just soft gutless targets by people whos life is worth nothing to them. Oh and the reward for such cowardice acts....eternity with Allah and 70 virgins in paradise. Now tell me what kind of sick demented pervert wants to take advanateg of 70 virgins. I wonder what the poor virgins did to to get such a punishment. Perhaps they were just infidel whores and therefore a useless life according to Islam. Would you like me to actually find the chapter and verse as I do have a copy here.
And as for your question
Do I consider somebody who holds no value in human life, who would rape my daughter and kill my son because I do not believe in theri religion. Who kills innocent woman and children because they are too gutless to confront military targets, who flys planes into buildings filled with thousand of people from hundreds of different countries, who kills another soldier in battle ( justified ) but then continues to dismember him and drag him through the streets, who kidnaps civillians, who gases thousand of kurds because they are not Suni Muslims, who pays a bounty to any terrorists family if they are killed in a "Jihad"
to be worth less than somebody who values life, who loves people, who goes out of their way to assist anybody. Then the answer must be yes.
Sorry but how can you compare the two and please dont give me the retoric about they are just defending their country. Spain was not a threat to them, the office workers were no threat , the Israeli olympians were no threat. They were all just soft gutless targets by people whos life is worth nothing to them. Oh and the reward for such cowardice acts....eternity with Allah and 70 virgins in paradise. Now tell me what kind of sick demented pervert wants to take advanateg of 70 virgins. I wonder what the poor virgins did to to get such a punishment. Perhaps they were just infidel whores and therefore a useless life according to Islam. Would you like me to actually find the chapter and verse as I do have a copy here.
I wouldnt want to belong to any club that would have me as a member
i am of middle eastern and muslim decent...
y dont you get your verse of the quran and post it here....
i dont mind if you dont like muslims....but dont you ever fuking bag them out ...im anti american....to the bone...anti israeli to the bone and anti howard to the bone....
u might be old and wise to alot of people and when i met you i thought u were a top bloke...but i now think you are a complete wanker...
no offense this is my personal judgment as you have yours of middle eastern and muslim people...
and some of you might wanna fighjt for the war on terroroism i would like to fight against america in every single way....
but not yet....not now....u think the law is soo good dont you.....just a few weeks ago a fmaily friends son who lives arounbd the corner from me...in blacktown...who was studying medicine at USYD... got arrested and finally senteced to 24 years gaol....for being affiliated with terrorist/... "lashkare taiba"...if you follow the world u would know thye are freedoom fighter in kasmir....another war torn state....24 years, for spending 3 weeks in pakistan...wheres the justice....id like to go find photos of what "isreali terrorists" have done to muslim babies....
and it might sound bad but i feel no sympathy wat so ever for the americans in iraq except for being there in the first place...they go at their own risk....
y dont you get your verse of the quran and post it here....
i dont mind if you dont like muslims....but dont you ever fuking bag them out ...im anti american....to the bone...anti israeli to the bone and anti howard to the bone....
u might be old and wise to alot of people and when i met you i thought u were a top bloke...but i now think you are a complete wanker...
no offense this is my personal judgment as you have yours of middle eastern and muslim people...
and some of you might wanna fighjt for the war on terroroism i would like to fight against america in every single way....
but not yet....not now....u think the law is soo good dont you.....just a few weeks ago a fmaily friends son who lives arounbd the corner from me...in blacktown...who was studying medicine at USYD... got arrested and finally senteced to 24 years gaol....for being affiliated with terrorist/... "lashkare taiba"...if you follow the world u would know thye are freedoom fighter in kasmir....another war torn state....24 years, for spending 3 weeks in pakistan...wheres the justice....id like to go find photos of what "isreali terrorists" have done to muslim babies....
and it might sound bad but i feel no sympathy wat so ever for the americans in iraq except for being there in the first place...they go at their own risk....
pictures
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/i ... 22ce10.jpg
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/i ... es/6hk.jpg
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/i ... child3.jpg
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/i ... c3bd00.jpg
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/i ... 8aaf00.jpg
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/i ... e7ef90.jpg
these are only a few thing at small scales....i would put up the more scary ones but i think its emotionally harsh to some people...
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/i ... es/6hk.jpg
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/i ... child3.jpg
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/i ... c3bd00.jpg
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/i ... 8aaf00.jpg
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/i ... e7ef90.jpg
these are only a few thing at small scales....i would put up the more scary ones but i think its emotionally harsh to some people...
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Project2501
- I like starions more
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:50 pm
- Location: Melbourne
I see nothing wrong with a good discussion or debate, but once you assume to know where i get my opinions from you destroy all credibility you ever had. Regardless of age. I am in the process of being university educated, but I am also from a minority group. It is not as easy as being a white person in a white country like you apparently are, Jesusdroveastarion. A little perspective is in order, in fact it is imperative in this multicultural day and age.
1. Why did America help us in WW2? Look at Australia, and look at how tactical an advantage it would be if Japan and other Communist Asian countries had control of Australia. It would have been very bad news for America. Do you think they did it because they LIKED us?
2. Dont ever assume Im pro muslim. In fact dont ever assume at all, it only serves to make you look like an ass. I take an objective view on everything as part of my education. Maybe someone should go and GET an education, Jesusdroveastarion. I see the world as it is presented to me, which basically stands as: Western world vs Eastern world. Western world = America Australia England. The fact that they happen to be predominantly WHITE is not an issue, merely for trivia. The Eastern world = Asia, Eastern Asia (which includes the Middle east for those geographically challenged) and the fact that they are not of caucasian descent is also trivia.
3.
4. You tell us that you learn through life experiences, Jesusdroveastarion (I dont mean to pick on you but you seemed to pick on me). That is but ONE lifetime. Collective education as provided by our seats of learning, are from COUNTLESS life experiences. Do not argue with the numbers. But I shall play your game. I very highly doubt that any of your family members were killed wantonly by American soldiers during conflict. I very highly doubt you were ran out of your own country because of the aftermath of a war that America instigated, aggravated, then abandoned. I very highly doubt that you ever fled your country through means that have not been made clear to the general public apart from being known as the "boat people". I very highly doubt that your family was ever persecuted, imprisoned, tortured for: a) being a Democrat under Communist law; or b) wrongly perceived to be "communists" so therefore a foreign military power took it upon themselves to kill us. THAT, Jesusdroveastarion, is not imagination but MY LIFE EXPERIENCES. But I am not here to whinge, I am here to live and I shall end it here.
5. Sorry for the long post, but this is the final point. Americans are still in Iraq because they cannot pull out. That would be acceding yet another loss, and such a loss in this game cannot be tolerated. I have my suspicions on why they were so quick to "cut and run", but I shall reserve my own discretion on that.
6. Ok final final one. About the Gaza strip it does not matter whose land it originally was. Australia used to be Aboriginal land if i recall. America used to be native american indian land, if i recall. Does that mean that using military force, coupled with a vast array of technical arsenal to push back a population without any other means of defending themselves justified? How about if Aboriginals were to come and kill us and say it was for the sake of reclaiming land that was wrongfully taken from them? NOTHING ever justifies the right to genocide, as we have concluded from the holocaust. However, using the holocaust as a shield from international condemnation. "we suffered the holocaust, leave us alone in what we are doing" is a very frail excuse. Indeed the holocaust was wrong, but so were the crusades. Read the papers, Jesusdroveastarion. Shooting at women and children who were doing no more than protesting against their houses being bulldozed (!) will never, ever, be justified.
If you assumed I was pro-muslim, then let me assume just one thing: that you are a redneck white bred racist.
Cheers
tom.
PS I am of Asian descent, not that it should have ever mattered other than to satisfy your racist curiosity.
1. Why did America help us in WW2? Look at Australia, and look at how tactical an advantage it would be if Japan and other Communist Asian countries had control of Australia. It would have been very bad news for America. Do you think they did it because they LIKED us?
2. Dont ever assume Im pro muslim. In fact dont ever assume at all, it only serves to make you look like an ass. I take an objective view on everything as part of my education. Maybe someone should go and GET an education, Jesusdroveastarion. I see the world as it is presented to me, which basically stands as: Western world vs Eastern world. Western world = America Australia England. The fact that they happen to be predominantly WHITE is not an issue, merely for trivia. The Eastern world = Asia, Eastern Asia (which includes the Middle east for those geographically challenged) and the fact that they are not of caucasian descent is also trivia.
3.
. Does this remind you of Israel/Ariel Sharon? How about George "Shock and Awe" Bush? It was a well known objective of bombing raids in WW2 on Germany (and a well known consequence of "carpet bombing" raids in Iraq) that the intent was to kill civilians to show the Germans (Iraqis) that the US are as "barbaric" as they are reputed to be. I assume you meant however, the Iraqi conflict, and all I can say is, how else is a poor, non-military state like Iraq going to counter an attack by the American military machine? Would you rather they bow down because of superior military might?Who kills innocent woman and children because they are too gutless to confront military targets
4. You tell us that you learn through life experiences, Jesusdroveastarion (I dont mean to pick on you but you seemed to pick on me). That is but ONE lifetime. Collective education as provided by our seats of learning, are from COUNTLESS life experiences. Do not argue with the numbers. But I shall play your game. I very highly doubt that any of your family members were killed wantonly by American soldiers during conflict. I very highly doubt you were ran out of your own country because of the aftermath of a war that America instigated, aggravated, then abandoned. I very highly doubt that you ever fled your country through means that have not been made clear to the general public apart from being known as the "boat people". I very highly doubt that your family was ever persecuted, imprisoned, tortured for: a) being a Democrat under Communist law; or b) wrongly perceived to be "communists" so therefore a foreign military power took it upon themselves to kill us. THAT, Jesusdroveastarion, is not imagination but MY LIFE EXPERIENCES. But I am not here to whinge, I am here to live and I shall end it here.
5. Sorry for the long post, but this is the final point. Americans are still in Iraq because they cannot pull out. That would be acceding yet another loss, and such a loss in this game cannot be tolerated. I have my suspicions on why they were so quick to "cut and run", but I shall reserve my own discretion on that.
6. Ok final final one. About the Gaza strip it does not matter whose land it originally was. Australia used to be Aboriginal land if i recall. America used to be native american indian land, if i recall. Does that mean that using military force, coupled with a vast array of technical arsenal to push back a population without any other means of defending themselves justified? How about if Aboriginals were to come and kill us and say it was for the sake of reclaiming land that was wrongfully taken from them? NOTHING ever justifies the right to genocide, as we have concluded from the holocaust. However, using the holocaust as a shield from international condemnation. "we suffered the holocaust, leave us alone in what we are doing" is a very frail excuse. Indeed the holocaust was wrong, but so were the crusades. Read the papers, Jesusdroveastarion. Shooting at women and children who were doing no more than protesting against their houses being bulldozed (!) will never, ever, be justified.
If you assumed I was pro-muslim, then let me assume just one thing: that you are a redneck white bred racist.
Cheers
tom.
PS I am of Asian descent, not that it should have ever mattered other than to satisfy your racist curiosity.
Last edited by Project2501 on Sat May 22, 2004 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
..More than meets the eye..
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Jesusdroveawestfield
- christian moderator
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:13 am
Phew ! thers some heated response there.
i dont mind if you dont like muslims....but dont you ever fuking bag them out ...im anti american....to the bone...anti israeli to the bone and anti howard to the bone....
u might be old and wise to alot of people and when i met you i thought u were a top bloke...but i now think you are a complete wanker...
No offence taken, some of my best friends call me lovely names like that all the time. I am assuming you are the young guys who bought the stuff off me. I thought you were nice young blokes and still do. I think you are confused into thinking that I dont like Muslims ? Not at all. In fact I like everybody who values life and is good to each other. I think if you re read my post you will see that I was refering to the people who blow up innocent people. Did I ever say all Muslim were bad, no not at all.
Look the fact is there is a lot of stuff that goes on in this world, not everything the Americans do is bad and sure not all of it is good but to generalise like that puts you in the same position as those who kill innocents ( on both sides ) A bit of reason and less emotion has to come into the discussion. I am sorry you feel that way about me, very regrettable.
i dont mind if you dont like muslims....but dont you ever fuking bag them out ...im anti american....to the bone...anti israeli to the bone and anti howard to the bone....
u might be old and wise to alot of people and when i met you i thought u were a top bloke...but i now think you are a complete wanker...
No offence taken, some of my best friends call me lovely names like that all the time. I am assuming you are the young guys who bought the stuff off me. I thought you were nice young blokes and still do. I think you are confused into thinking that I dont like Muslims ? Not at all. In fact I like everybody who values life and is good to each other. I think if you re read my post you will see that I was refering to the people who blow up innocent people. Did I ever say all Muslim were bad, no not at all.
Look the fact is there is a lot of stuff that goes on in this world, not everything the Americans do is bad and sure not all of it is good but to generalise like that puts you in the same position as those who kill innocents ( on both sides ) A bit of reason and less emotion has to come into the discussion. I am sorry you feel that way about me, very regrettable.
I wouldnt want to belong to any club that would have me as a member
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tmz_99
- Harmful or fatal if swallowed
- Posts: 1582
- Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 1:50 am
- Location: Perth
- Contact:
hmmmm, I dont think that puts us in the same position as the people who kill innocents, in fact, I believe the point we are trying to bring across is that we certainly dont condone those sorts of actions, and hence we dont condone any government who does. Hence we are not saying ALL americans are bloodthirsty, but the ones in power are certainly looking that way, the soliders on the ground also seem to be (altho certainly not ALL are). Same goes for the people on the other side of the conflict, sure, we dont condone or support their civilian-killing methods, but to kill THEIR civilians is certainly not the solution.Jesusdroveastarion wrote: Not everything the Americans do is bad and sure not all of it is good but to generalise like that puts you in the same position as those who kill innocents ( on both sides ) .
Also torture on both sides of the conflict is also wrong. War is an uncivilised action and there are certainly other MUCH better ways to solve a dispute, but if war is the only answer (which in this case I still dont believe it was) there are better ways to conduct oneself as a nation.
---------
TVR T350C
TVR T350C
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Project2501
- I like starions more
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:50 pm
- Location: Melbourne
Please dont start with misguided personal attacks. I take offence at anyone who implies Im a communist. Act your age.communists like you and Mark Latham
bit of reason and less emotion has to come into the discussion
Then please dont write a short story about a young family in NY. Fiction vs Fact.
Dont get me wrong, I hold nothing against you jesusdroveastarion..
Last edited by Project2501 on Sat May 22, 2004 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
..More than meets the eye..
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Cookiemonster
- Mother Goose
- Posts: 3177
- Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:33 pm
- Location: Sydney
Golleeee
The one and only reason for conflict is intolerance of the other inhabitants of this planet, human, animal or whatever.
Who gives one person the right to destroy, kill or maim others. Its not political, religion or social. It just comes down to intolerance and hence all the human trauma in the world.
You can practice any religion, political or social following you like in Australia. You cant in some other countries. Australia is a land of opportunity and freedom and tolerance. Unfortunately the same cannot be said of the countries where this trouble is stemming from.
Daryl, I know your life values and respect for others right to live and prosper through good values, not terrorism, anti "anything" and selfish gain.
Why cant we get along with each other, we're here for a good time not a long time. Personally, the only time I rile up is when someone wants to interfere with my enjoyment of life.
Who gives one person the right to destroy, kill or maim others. Its not political, religion or social. It just comes down to intolerance and hence all the human trauma in the world.
You can practice any religion, political or social following you like in Australia. You cant in some other countries. Australia is a land of opportunity and freedom and tolerance. Unfortunately the same cannot be said of the countries where this trouble is stemming from.
Daryl, I know your life values and respect for others right to live and prosper through good values, not terrorism, anti "anything" and selfish gain.
Why cant we get along with each other, we're here for a good time not a long time. Personally, the only time I rile up is when someone wants to interfere with my enjoyment of life.
Never argue with an idiot, it brings you down to their level and they beat you with experience.
phew that was a long read! a good one tho...
all i can say is stop stereotyping uni students daz... you keep bringing their 'miseducation' up but i see no bearing on the current topic. i just want education in my chosen field of profession. uni doesn't effect any students view of the current war, or anything personal about them.
on the war issue tho, i have no idea what to think as their are way too many facts out there that i don't know. i'm learning tho!
all i can say is stop stereotyping uni students daz... you keep bringing their 'miseducation' up but i see no bearing on the current topic. i just want education in my chosen field of profession. uni doesn't effect any students view of the current war, or anything personal about them.
on the war issue tho, i have no idea what to think as their are way too many facts out there that i don't know. i'm learning tho!
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Jesusdroveawestfield
- christian moderator
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:13 am
Good stuff
Ok, points taken guys. Sorry for calling you a communist. ( still think Mark Latham is though......is that Ok ? )
I will end this discusison here by apolgising to anybody who I have offended. I am sorry for being so critical of universities. I should of course learn to seperate the teachings of a few lecturers and the beliefs and values of the students attending them. Perhaps some of you know me and my beliefs. My biggest problems with univerity is the fact that they continue to profess a completly unproven ( theory ) in that of evolution....I admit this tends to cloud my opinion of them. A lot. The danger of teaching such a theory is that the basic belief is that we are just improved animals and therfore answerable to no moral code other than what we dictate to be right at the time. You only have to look at teen suicide to undersatnd the danger of teaching a young person that they are
merely improved pond slime rather than a designed and created unique and loved individual.
Anyway I did not want to start a debate now on evolution but really wanted to let you know why I am so biased about uni teachings. We are all obviously entitled to our own opinions.......though I think somebody did call me a F$#@%$g wanker for having one. I respect you rights to disagree with me and again apologise for some of my ill thought out responses. Hey and for the record you ( trust me most people I meet do )
could say anything you like about the God that I worship and I would not even think anything of it...........certainly would not want to harm you for doing so.
Cheers
One last thing, some of you or most of you may be anti Howard but people like Wantsom and myself are old enough to have seen what a labour government does to a country. You young guys would not remember it be we have seen Whitlam sacked through mismanagement, a recession thatw as totally avoidable. Interest rates as high as 17 percent and on it goes. And remember it was only a few short months ago that Mark Latham was showing his true colours swearing and carrying onlike a pork chop. Strange how he suddenly became civilised when he got the top job isnt it.
I will end this discusison here by apolgising to anybody who I have offended. I am sorry for being so critical of universities. I should of course learn to seperate the teachings of a few lecturers and the beliefs and values of the students attending them. Perhaps some of you know me and my beliefs. My biggest problems with univerity is the fact that they continue to profess a completly unproven ( theory ) in that of evolution....I admit this tends to cloud my opinion of them. A lot. The danger of teaching such a theory is that the basic belief is that we are just improved animals and therfore answerable to no moral code other than what we dictate to be right at the time. You only have to look at teen suicide to undersatnd the danger of teaching a young person that they are
merely improved pond slime rather than a designed and created unique and loved individual.
Anyway I did not want to start a debate now on evolution but really wanted to let you know why I am so biased about uni teachings. We are all obviously entitled to our own opinions.......though I think somebody did call me a F$#@%$g wanker for having one. I respect you rights to disagree with me and again apologise for some of my ill thought out responses. Hey and for the record you ( trust me most people I meet do )
could say anything you like about the God that I worship and I would not even think anything of it...........certainly would not want to harm you for doing so.
Cheers
One last thing, some of you or most of you may be anti Howard but people like Wantsom and myself are old enough to have seen what a labour government does to a country. You young guys would not remember it be we have seen Whitlam sacked through mismanagement, a recession thatw as totally avoidable. Interest rates as high as 17 percent and on it goes. And remember it was only a few short months ago that Mark Latham was showing his true colours swearing and carrying onlike a pork chop. Strange how he suddenly became civilised when he got the top job isnt it.
I wouldnt want to belong to any club that would have me as a member
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Black JA
- 'throw me a frickin' bone here'
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:54 am
- Location: Melbourne
:o ...geez that was a heated debate....
i reckon thats enough of 'civil war' between the starion community.
we gotta stick together team...no more fighting.... leave politics to the politicians, administrators delete this topic, make a new one entitled : "compliments for starion club members" this way we can all get along, feel good about ourselves, and sleep at nite. :D
i reckon thats enough of 'civil war' between the starion community.
we gotta stick together team...no more fighting.... leave politics to the politicians, administrators delete this topic, make a new one entitled : "compliments for starion club members" this way we can all get along, feel good about ourselves, and sleep at nite. :D
BlAcK Ja KnIgHtRiDeR
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Project2501
- I like starions more
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:50 pm
- Location: Melbourne
Your points also taken, Jesusdroveastarion. I myself apologise for coming on a bit strong. I have very deep seated issues to take up with communists for what they have done to my family, and hence i tend to overreact when i am called one.
No hard feelings :D
cheers
tom.
PS Im still anti-US though.. :?
No hard feelings :D
cheers
tom.
PS Im still anti-US though.. :?
..More than meets the eye..
I feel after reading that everyone is entitled to their say. I have no issues with australia helping out America... its just the way it was all went about was totally wrong and completely goes against everything i stand for.
I personally have no problems with religous groups unless they are causing trouble for no good reason, if they have a good reason go for it.
The only religion i can NOT stand ever in my life ever ever ever ever is Christianity and related religons. Anyone who believes in this religion has been brainwashed by their parents at a young age with all the BS that they force fed you. There is no backing for that religion. I have no problem with people who are Christian, i get along with them fine, but bring up your religion and you better look out!
[rant=end]
*goes back to learning zippo lighter tricks*
I personally have no problems with religous groups unless they are causing trouble for no good reason, if they have a good reason go for it.
The only religion i can NOT stand ever in my life ever ever ever ever is Christianity and related religons. Anyone who believes in this religion has been brainwashed by their parents at a young age with all the BS that they force fed you. There is no backing for that religion. I have no problem with people who are Christian, i get along with them fine, but bring up your religion and you better look out!
[rant=end]
*goes back to learning zippo lighter tricks*
1983 JA Staz
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