advice wanted - rebuilding engine

[Tamgesic]

since the constant problem with the fuel cut, i have decided that the easiest solution is to go to mpi. its a pain trying to solve this issue, and honestly, the plan was to do mpi/4g64 soon anyway.

so i started looking for an l300 manifold and bits and pieces, and lo and behold i found a 4g64, complete, stripped for rebuild, for $1k. it comes with new rings, bearings, block honed, full head set, water pump, cambelt, basically all the bits needed for a standard rebuild. crank has been polished, block cleaned, pistons acid washed etc etc etc. (apparently 1500 worth of parts, and 1000 worth of engine work such as skiming head, polishing crank, hone, etc)

so after finding this, the plan changed. i am going to look at this engine on the weekend, and if i get it, the plan is to reassemble it, and put it in with mpi in place of my engine. i have a local tuner here who can fit and tune my new computer for me, and i have a tc06 turbo that i plan to run on the engine until i can afford a new exh mani, and bigger turbo.

the plan for the car is a road car which gets minimal street use (mayb e 20 - 50km a week) and can handle the occasional track day.

now the question is, while the engine is out the car, is it time to get forged pistons/rods/arp fasteners and rebuild the motor that way? given that the cost of a second rebuild later with these performance parts is far far more than just the cost of buying them and adding them to the initial rebuild now, should i save for a couple months and do it that way? i am having a really reputable engine builder assmeble the engine for me.

so what if any of the following parts should i add to the engine when i have it assembled now? (my goal is about 300whp, with a really healthy torque curve)
these prices are what i found with a quick skim over local auction site
arp head studs ($200 - 4g54 parts machined down to fit 4g64)
arp rod bolts & mains bolts ($200)
better bearings? ($200 acl or similiar?)
better head gasket ($??? copper? graphlex?)
o-ringed block? (cost?)
forged pistons? ($1200)
forged rods? ($1000)

anything else you can think of that would aid in longevity?
i can get a set of standard oe 4g64 pistons for $230.

and the reason i want a 4g64 over a t/c, is that i prefer mid range power to top end power, a power band between 3 and 6 is preferrable to 4 and 7 to me.

[OLD FART]

Tam you are a legend!!!
IMHO contact Jas as he may be able to point you in the right direction to get trade prices
1 ARP studs top & bottom DON'T get the 54 head studs cut down just get spacer washers made up p/s contact Anchor (Jeri ) as he has mine but won't need them as he is now TC DO NOT USE TC studs as they are to short
2 Use a cometic or similar MLS head gasket NO "O" rings needed
3 Use Eagle or Spool forged rods & Wiseco pistons DO NOT use stock pistons
4 Use ACL Race Series bearings
5 Make sure that the rod pins (GUDGEON ) ARE THE SAME SIZE
6 Get the COMPLETE rotating mass balanced
7 Get the bolck TORQUE PLATE HONED !!!
8 DO NOT !! RUN IT IN GENTLY refer to MOTOR MANS SITE 4 THE RIGHT WAY remember the only thing that needs to be run/bedded in are the rings
Good luck and keep us posted on pogress
PS MAKE SURE BOTH HEAD & BLOCK ARE MACHINED FOR THE MLS GASKET

[Tamgesic]

do i really need forged pistons, if i am only shooting for moderate power?
i will be reusing the standard gudgeon pins, if i use standard pistons. otherwise, what is standard gudgeon size on 4g64? can i use 0.060(1.5mm) oversize 4g63 pistons, or do i need 4g64 specific stuff?

hoiw much will balancing set me back?

block torque plate? whats this?

[OLD FART]

Tam do it once and do it right it will cost less in the long run .You wanted 300 whp so forged pistons are a must
New pistons come with new gudgeon pins
Balanceing app $150
Torqueplate is a thick ally plate that has holes in it that matches the bores and is bolted onto the block to simulate the forces that occur when the head is bolted& tensioned down.This causes minor distorsion ( high spots ) in the bores that are eliminated by honeing
You will need 64 specific pistons as the pin height is 6 mm lower down from the crown (top ) than 63 pistons Due to the 64 block being 6 mm higher. 63&64 rods are the same length

[thrash]

there's never time or money to do it right, but always time and money to do it over

don't be one of these people ^

[Tamgesic]

I dont want to be one of those and do always like to do the job right but in the past have tended to get so stuck on details and extra mods that it takes an age to ever actually DO anything .

My Starion can now run me to the shops and back...thats it! If I want to get out to the beach or down to auckland or wherever it takes 6 hours or jerking and shuddering in a sick Starion instead of 2 hours.

So I want to reach a balance where I actually get this project on its way and without a huge massive budget for lots of extras I possibly wont need .

I thought 4g64 pistons were pretty strong?

Getting forgies would mean no suspension mods for awhile and months more of saving.

I have engine and parts now !!

[OLD FART]

Tam the good advice given to you by people that have been there & done that is from personal experience =blood ,sweat & tears + many $$$$$$$$$$
However if you forget your 300 whp wish and run stockish boost levels then stock pistons should be ok The choice is yours alone to make

[RiceThief]

If you time things right you could have the forged setup while having a starion to drive at the same time. If you get your mpi setup done on your current engine with the tc06 and then save up for the forged setup and bigger turbo. This is of course assuming your engine is healthy.

[www.18u]

Tam,
Why go 4g64? Why not build a setup like i have for sale?

Vr4 pistons, 4g64 head and mpi. Ask yourself why do you want a 2.4? I mean heaps of people make good power and torque, with the same setup as mentioned above. To be honest most people here can't believe how much the difference is by just going mpi, let alone having the ability to run some decent boost levels.

If you go 64 what Rad has said is completely true. However forged pistons for a 64 are not cheap! You better check if this motor is a wide or narrow block, and if it is 6 or 7 bolt too....

[crshbndct]

Just another quick question. Have seen two different forged pistons listed which may work. One is to quit 4g64 with twimcan head. The other is to suit 4g63 twin cam with 2.4 crank. I assume the first one is the right one? And rods seem to come in two sizes 22mm and 21mm . I presume that as long as this size is correct i can use 4g63 pistons. Also didn't "4g64b" use standard machined pistons and get 350whp?

[RiceThief]

Just another quick question. Have seen two different forged pistons listed which may work. One is to quit 4g64 with twimcan head. The other is to suit 4g63 twin cam with 2.4 crank. I assume the first one is the right one? And rods seem to come in two sizes 22mm and 21mm . I presume that as long as this size is correct i can use 4g63 pistons. Also didn't "4g64b" use standard machined pistons and get 350whp?

You would need a piston that would suit the 64 block which would be the first one. Alternatively as user on this forums got a custom set of pistons done for the 64 block with the right vavle reliefs and high compression ratio to suit the 64 head. http://forums.austarion.com/viewtopic.php?t=12131. The different rod sizes will depend on which crank you have, 21mm is the rods used on the 6bolt crank and 22mm is used on the 7 bolt crank. You want the 6 bolt crank with a wideblock if you want to run the starion gearbox.

You could run standard pistons but if you are paying all that money to get the engine machined and assembled then why skimp on the cost of the pistons? From what tam stated its going to be a track car and racing a car on a track puts massive stresses on the engine that you dont see on the street. Think of spending that bit extra on the pistons and rods as insurance from having to spend the money a second time on the machine work and assembly.

[crshbndct]

How important is the valve shrouding? A lot of people use vr4 pistons in there 4g63? And the ones i found are available in any compression ratio from 8 to 12 to suit twimcan head. So surely i could find the right one to fit the different head?

[RiceThief]

Not so important on a sohc 4g63 as they are non interference. Im not sure about the 64 head, it should be non interference as well. The biggest issue is as you are using a 64 block which will restrict you to 64 pistons and as you are using a 64 head with a large cc which will reduce your compression. This is the reason why auxminx has gotten custom pistons, to increase the compression ratio.

[quest]

Also didn't "4g64b" use standard machined pistons and get 350whp

exactly.... subjected to track use also. His was an excellent 64 build imo.
Good tuning is mandatory, forged pistons aren't. I'd spend the money there.
seen too many oem cast piston motors perform fine.
For example;
CA18 ~350hp using 'modified' CA18DE non turbo pistons
a couple street mazda BPs 1.8L over 400hp, oe (non turbo) pistons
Toyota 3TC beasts @30+psi fitted with stock mazda B2000 truck oem cast pistons ....and so on

Ask yourself why do you want a 2.4?

no replacemnet for displacement, especially for midrange torque... and a motor with limited revs

[RiceThief]

exactly.... subjected to track use also. His was an excellent 64 build imo.
Good tuning is mandatory, forged pistons aren't. I'd spend the money there.
seen too many oem cast piston motors perform fine.
For example;
CA18 ~350hp using 'modified' CA18DE non turbo pistons
a couple street mazda BPs 1.8L over 400hp, oe (non turbo) pistons
Toyota 3TC beasts @30+psi fitted with stock mazda B2000 truck oem cast pistons ....and so on

Maybe im just harder on my car but after 8 rounds the engine was showing signs of blowby. This was running stock boost and stock tuning. Saying that the engine had done about 100k km but it was in good condition prior to racing.