Another Soch VS Doch ?!

All technical questions and answers regarding starions, being modifications to maintenance.
quest
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Post by quest »

Barney wrote:
quest wrote:I've seen no 2L sohc staz pushed by a t4 compressor @30+ psi, with a proven cam, etc., so how can one deem its potential inadequate ?
Thats because it was done in the 80's and things have moved on from there!
Good, then that's the sorta 2L sohc info I'm after. Can you share the details & results ?

Every -monster- 4cyl I've observed runs ~30psi range, no matter how many cams it has. So how much have "things moved on" really ?

Still practiced with our 2.6s, yielding todays performance numbers from yesterdays 2 valve motor. Surprise :)
I mean, how many heavy 4 cyl street cars can touch a mid 10 with stock cam, pump gas and old tractor turbo ?!
Question is, if you got the 'smarts' to make it click as well as others have proven it can.

I'm thinking (or guessing more like it) a 2L sohc can't be toooo far behind if subjected to similar conditions. Who knows.

The way I see it, all motors are trying to make torque. Horsepower is only an indication of what RPM the tq is produced. If your intended application keeps the powerplant in the rpm range where its tq band is strongest.... you've just discovered how a sohc is capable of exceptional performance

I'm not argueing (or really care) which is 'better' tbh.
Yep, go with "whatever blows your hair back".
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Barney
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Post by Barney »

quest wrote:
Barney wrote:
quest wrote:I've seen no 2L sohc staz pushed by a t4 compressor @30+ psi, with a proven cam, etc., so how can one deem its potential inadequate ?
Thats because it was done in the 80's and things have moved on from there!
Good, then that's the sorta 2L sohc info I'm after. Can you share the details & results ?

Every -monster- 4cyl I've observed runs ~30psi range, no matter how many cams it has. So how much have "things moved on" really ?

Still practiced with our 2.6s, yielding todays performance numbers from yesterdays 2 valve motor. Surprise :)
I mean, how many heavy 4 cyl street cars can touch a mid 10 with stock cam, pump gas and old tractor turbo ?!
Question is, if you got the 'smarts' to make it click as well as others have proven it can.

I'm thinking (or guessing more like it) a 2L sohc can't be toooo far behind if subjected to similar conditions. Who knows.

The way I see it, all motors are trying to make torque. Horsepower is only an indication of what RPM the tq is produced. If your intended application keeps the powerplant in the rpm range where its tq band is strongest.... you've just discovered how a sohc is capable of exceptional performance

I'm not argueing (or really care) which is 'better' tbh.
Yep, go with "whatever blows your hair back".
SOHC. 2.0 LTR 4G63. Ported + Flowed head, Angled valves, big Crow Racing Cam, adjustable cam gear, Double valve springs, HKS GT2530 Turbo, Custom exhaust manifold, Modified L300 intake manifold with forward facing 70mm throttle body, front mount cooler (tube+fin), 3" dump and exhaust, WOLF 3D version 4 ECU + other thins I cant remember. 18 PSI boost It did have only standard pistons!! This was cranked up harder than the DOHC with slightly leaner fuel
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DOHC Stroked 2.3ltr 4G63. Standard head with only mild pocket porting, standard cams and valves, adjustable cam gear, Custom intake and exhaust manifold, Garrett GT2871r turbo, JE foged pistons, ARP main bolts, Knife edged crank, same intercooler, Cometic headgasket, same ECU, same fuel, same gearbox and diff, 36 mm intake RESTRICTOR 17psi boost then drops to 10 psi boost, 11.5:1 fuel mixture.
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Get Stroked! 2.3ltr EVO engine
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zippo
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Post by zippo »

i know this debate has been going on for a while ...............
but there are some very high powerd vehicles out there.

there is a galant based in nsw that runs the 2.6 and has proved over and over to run in the low 10's ...........
this vehicle has been fitted with a power gide and a 5000rpm stall backed by a 9" and slicks but is a very simple set up , standard magna head .

Melbourne has another , again not a starion , but a gemmini , this vehicle runs on race fuel and has a t3 fitted and backed by a 7000rpm stall and a borg/warner diff , again a simple set up ........

dont get me wrong , these vehicles are more track vehicles rather than street and have alot of research and trial and error to get them where they are today .

the gemmini has had the same engine combo for some time now and is often seen at both calder park and heathcote race way running in the 9's

check out the link to give you more details .
so i know this battle will never end , but its each to their own opinion
http://www.freewebs.com/gemracing/
old skool jap ...........
there is no substitute...........
Entaran
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Post by Entaran »

a DOHC 4g63 staz should run 12's pretty much out of the box. No other mods.

What's it take to get an SOHC staz to that?

--

A vr4 can lay down a 13 second pass with nothing but 5psi extra boost.

--

The DOHC head will always give you something the SOHC can't.... POWERBAND. Those massive turbo's are spooled by lb/min exhaust flow. Rev it high enough you'll get em spinning faster. DOHC heads rev far far far higher. My "toy" in the shed is a 2.0L DOHC (vr4, in a vr4) with a 9000 rpm redline.
JD_Stazza_Brendan
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Post by JD_Stazza_Brendan »

Built right a SOHC can have great powerband...

Daves JA has awesome powerband, instant boost, has 300hp, run a high 12 and its a 2.0 SOHC
-JA Starion with JD bits , Forged engine, Heaps of mods (parked up)
-BFII XR6 Turbo Ute , Here comes 400hp for 2k :p
-77 Mazda 323 drag car. 13bt rotary project.

Yes i have too many toys.
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Entaran
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Post by Entaran »

I have trouble dealing with the fact that you guys think 300hp is a big number.

the AWD boys are pulling 300+hp with semi minor bolt on's and some increase in boost. And they have 3 diffs full of parasitic drag.

I'm itching for having enough money to put a DOHC in a staz with more or less same mods as my vr4 to see what the real difference is in power between 2wd and 4wd.
JD_Stazza_Brendan
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Post by JD_Stazza_Brendan »

300whp in a ~1200kg car is alot for a road car... Sure you can have more. But is it needed on a road car?
-JA Starion with JD bits , Forged engine, Heaps of mods (parked up)
-BFII XR6 Turbo Ute , Here comes 400hp for 2k :p
-77 Mazda 323 drag car. 13bt rotary project.

Yes i have too many toys.
SOHC POWER
redzone
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Post by redzone »

zippo wrote:i know this debate has been going on for a while ...............
but there are some very high powerd vehicles out there.

there is a galant based in nsw that runs the 2.6 and has proved over and over to run in the low 10's ...........
this vehicle has been fitted with a power gide and a 5000rpm stall backed by a 9" and slicks but is a very simple set up , standard magna head .

Melbourne has another , again not a starion , but a gemini , this vehicle runs on race fuel and has a t3 fitted and backed by a 7000rpm stall and a borg/warner diff , again a simple set up ........

dont get me wrong , these vehicles are more track vehicles rather than street and have alot of research and trial and error to get them where they are today .

the gemini has had the same engine combo for some time now and is often seen at both calder park and heathcote race way running in the 9's

check out the link to give you more details .
so i know this battle will never end , but its each to their own opinion
http://www.freewebs.com/gemracing/

i dont know if i'd call darren's setup "simple". impressive, yes, but not simple. the amount of development in that car is phenomenal.. 570hp and its only a 1.8 isuzu. similar design engine to a sohc 4G63, i know a lot about them myself as i cut my teeth on gemini's, and am building an extremely serious sohc isuzu 4ZD1 2.3 powered tx coupe for drag racing at the moment.

Image

i stayed with sohc in this car because:

1) i wanted to prove a point

2) i wanted to stay isuzu, and the 4Z's are the best isuzu 4 cyl and imo best sohc 8 valve 4 cyl ever made

3) the isuzu twincams arent that great for forced induction


believe me my gem nearly ended up with a 4G63 dohc in it, but i do like the idea of showing em who's boss with a sohc 8 valve engine, as well as brand loyalty of course. however, common sense prevails, if there was a 16V dohc head available for the 4Z, i'd be all over it like a rash..

but thats enough about isuzu in a mitsu forum....

for my currently 2.6 powered widebody starion however, for me its going 4G63 DOHC all the way, if u want the ultimate setup. its available, might as well use it. its not like its particularly expensive to do compared to a sohc, if ur building a ground up project and can do some work yourself. i'll be using that car as an all rounder, track days, street sprints, drifting, and still be capable of reliably driving to sydney and back if i so desire.

personally i really dont like the 4G54, those chains, argh, those chains. no matter what u do to that engine it'll still be and sound like a sigma motor.

the 63 is just such a sweet little thing, sound so awesome, dohc has an incredible powerband, easy hi po parts availability, proven in high end sport compact drag racing all around the world, no vices in the design like the SR20 etc. imo the 4G63 dohc is the best 2.0 4cyl dohc engine ever made.

horses for courses though.

if u like the idea of your aussie starion still looking like an aussie starion under the bonnet, stick with the '63 sohc.

if u want an huge powerband, easy parts availability go the dohc version.

if u want huge bottom end torque, and an engine that sounds (at idle at the very least) like a rusty old sigma/magna from gympie, go the 4G54.


LOL yeah ok, u can get big power from a '54, just stirring.
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zippo
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Post by zippo »

with any vehicle development comes at a cost .
all trial and error , the sad thing is for someone when its all sorted and proven some lucky person copys this and avoids all that persons mishaps

its been a few years now since the first rb30 cracked the 9 sec barrier , and it came at a cost back then .

today all you do is follow the proven formula of bolt this to that , add this , and put that over there and you are there .
but back to the starion , we are talking about a 20 year old car with ancient head desighn small small ports and so on ,
with modern twin cam heads you basicly need no porting other than some clean up and you can extract amasing power ....

for me what i have is enough for what it is with the current set up ..
all i currently have for the next motor is a gt 35/40 sitting in a box
for next engine when ever that happens i would be going vr4 and be adapting an auto , jatco 3 speed to avoid too much buthchering ....

but for an old vehicle i think we can all agree that the simple sohc can still cut it out there on the street ,
:D
old skool jap ...........
there is no substitute...........
quest
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Post by quest »

Looks good redzone!
must have something wrong with the 54s you've heard, unless they're different from u.s. starquests ?
Both my 54s still have balance shafts intact are quiet smooth revvers (particularly for a big displacement four).
One '84 I had, you wouldn't know it was running unless you saw the belts & mech fan spinning, or tailpipe low tone growl out back.

when comparing the drag times of the 2.6 vs 4g63 dohc SQ swaps with similar mods, you may be surprised/not impressed at the results.

a proper camshaft design/grind will give sohc enough of a powerband, so at least you could address manifolds or head restrictions.
Finding a quality cam can be harder than it appears.
Check out how many years and grinders it took the u.s. DSM folks.

Went thru a few cams with a old toyota 2 valve pushrod motor which struggled to 6000rpm. Then a "magic wand" pulled hard past 8500, still maintaining street manners, no other changes.
Those same 3TC 8V motors drag 7sec et years ago and also found in some street 5spd 1.8L 10sec corollas. I witnessed one do 9.7s et ez shifting a stock celica 5spd gearbox! Would've been way quicker with an auto tranny.
8V can fly IF you do your homework with 'em.

I'll run as much boost thru my 2L sohc as I can get away with, using a proven cam. I'm convinced they can put up "big" numbers
I can't help but think a pro like Collier has been there/done it long ago... For instance, what was the out come if/when they turned up the boost on that 300hp @15psi car. Somebody must have done it

"4G63 dohc is the best 2.0 4cyl dohc engine ever made"
hard to argue that
redzone
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Post by redzone »

zippo there's a fellow i know up here with a factory (jap import) auto starion that he would most likely sell the required parts from (its a wreck) i can ask him if u like..

good points of course about development, i mean thats why i'm not into V8's, theres NO challenge, nothing to try, boring! the gem is a pretty unique engine combination, theres a few new ideas in that one :)

and your point about copying others ideas, the 2.4 head swap is an example, well now everyone knows about it, afaik i was the first to try it, correct me if i'm wrong, but either way everyone knows about it now. funnily enough i'd mentioned it on these forums ages ago, but it took me running flat 13's with a stock cam and fuel only ecu for people to really take notice.

i have a LOT of respect for chris collier, he's been playing with starions for a LONG time, i have for only about 4 years. i have a pretty good pool of knowledge built up from my own development strategies, thing is i'm a bit looser with information than chris, everything he does is a secret weapon it seems... fair enough i suppose, but i'm just keen for these cars to be seen out everywhere making kills, and at the end of the day u can have all the information u want, but u cant guarantee joe blogs engine is gonna be anywhere near as good as mine....

and just so u know quest, the main reason i'm going dohc '63 in my widey is weight and weight distribution. i know i can get the same power from a '54, just not the same handling :beer
Fibreglass airdams $370, fibreglass front bumpers $260, reco drag links $165, alloy radiators $925 (unpolished), h/l switch rebuilds $125, all plus freight.
Coxs Automotive (07)54433507 3/5 Service st Maroochydore Q

www.facebook.com/coxsautomotive
www.coxsautomotive.com.au
JD_Stazza_Brendan
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Post by JD_Stazza_Brendan »

redzone wrote:thing is i'm a bit looser with information than chris, everything he does is a secret weapon it seems... fair enough i suppose
Not starting a shit fight or anything but the more you talk to Chris the more you learn. From what ive gathered he has been playing with different combos for years and is only recently fine tuning his SOHC setups. The motor hes built up now is gonna be killer...... :drool: :drool:

I dont get the arguments between workshops. We are only a small community and anyone willing to help us is a blessing. Different shops have different techniques etc etc.

Only in the last few years it seems that alot of high power starions are in the build, both of SOHC and DOHC variety. Both are proven power makers. Just think of it as some friendly competition.



sohc rules
-JA Starion with JD bits , Forged engine, Heaps of mods (parked up)
-BFII XR6 Turbo Ute , Here comes 400hp for 2k :p
-77 Mazda 323 drag car. 13bt rotary project.

Yes i have too many toys.
SOHC POWER
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zippo
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Post by zippo »

sharing info is great ,
but we all keep a secret or 2 up our sleeve , to have that edge when we need it :D

as far a canning/ bagging / slagging people, that should have been left at school .................
old skool jap ...........
there is no substitute...........
redzone
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Post by redzone »

oh definitely. i didnt mean that to be facetious or anything, its just the impression i've gotten from a few people thats all. suppose one day i'll most likely meet him, and obviously meeting someone is a better way to form an opinion than heresay and conjecture...

and as far as starting shit between workshops, here here, it doesnt do ANYONE any favours, just makes u look like a bit of a toss i think. the sunshine coast used to have a big problem with that, i decided the best strategy here was to just put my all into it, build some killer combinations, get them out reliably running around (when they're not destroying driveline components), letting people make up their own mind about my work...
Fibreglass airdams $370, fibreglass front bumpers $260, reco drag links $165, alloy radiators $925 (unpolished), h/l switch rebuilds $125, all plus freight.
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decoy
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Post by decoy »

:beer great way to approach it redzone!
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