UK MPI Project - Some Q's and Advice Pls!!

[flav]

Im not liking Japan too much these days. They have a Whale study program. Seems they have to continually study the taste.

[quest]

and you accuse ?me? of not reading ?

Anyway here's some rope. Now watch you hang your dumb ass.

how much is a FCD ?
why did you go MPI ?
How much did it cost you ?
What is your performance goal with your car ?
What is UK widebodys' reason & goal ?


>>"does that apply to a street driven car? Whats 'nice' about having ign control is day to day street driving, that is driving in peak hour traffic continually stop starting, hill starts, part throttle application, throttle response, highway driving. Sorry but I dont live my life a 1/4 mile at a time "

Explain exactly what you are saying about cars without prog ign.
Start off by saying how they live 1/4 mile at a time...

[RiceThief]

I dont need to accuse you of not reading, you show it through your posts.

Rope to hang myself, not likely, are you having trouble figuring out how to tie a knot? Would it help if I give you some white bed sheets to wear?

But i'll answer your questions anyway,

FCD was around $180 AUd when I last look for one from turbosmart, but go to any import wreckers and they will have heaps for sale probably around the $50 aud mark.

The reason why i went mpi is at the time when my tbi setup was failing the cost of injectors from mitsubishi was stupid, no one in australia had the ability to repair them either. I dont know about you but at $550 aud per injector i wasnt going to shell out $1100 for the pair of injectors when mpi is only abit more.

What my orginaly MPI setup cost me probably isnt relevant to people here as it was awhile ago so the prices are hard to compare but i'll break it down for you anyway.
Manifold - $150
Cooler - $550
Fuel only computer - $450 - bought it second hand
Injectors - $250 + $120 to get them clean and new seals
Throttle body - $50
Getting the manifold cut and shut and getting mounts on the cooler, a bracket for my coil and a bracket for the stock air/oil seperator
- $150
Various gaskets and bungs and drill bits - $100
MSD coil - $150
Cooler piping and getting tuned - $500
so all up around 2470 aud, some things are cheaper now and some things are more expensive, and including the cooler install and getting the new coil.

Performance goal, i drive like a grampa so i dont have a performance goal, but i did enjoy the odd circuit sprints at qr.

Widebody uks reason, what do you think i am a psychic as well? Why dont you ask him that.

What am i saying about cars without programble ign, they drive like a stock starion thats what i've been saying the past post if you bothered to read it. Even you admit having programable ignition is nice to have and drive any late model car and you see the differences two decades has made. The living a 1/4 mile at a time was a pun, thats why i used a :D after that comment, is that the basis of your whole argument against me?

So what is it round 4 now, thanks to roger i have been training for this day and can last the whole 10 rounds :D

[fr335tyl3r]

We all seem to be missing a fairly critical point here, from both sides of the fence.

Quest is referring to tbi on a 2.6L starion, which of course has more balls due to its largely increased displacement. Never having ridden in a 2.6MPI car I can't say how hard it should or shouldn't go.

We (AUS) are all referring to tbi on a 2.0L starion (or MPI), and from my experience, there is nothing you can do to a 2L that will make it spank nearly as hard in the bottom end as whacking on an MPI manifold. MPI doesn't necessarily have to be this huge expensive venture, it depends what results you are looking for, if you want to do things by halves, then you'll get off cheaply :D

Everyone in here needs to take a chill pill...quest there is no "US Haters" in here, it could be percieved that way due to the flaring opinions, but you have to understand that that is because you have an opinion that is different to ours, there is bound to be conflict. It would not matter where in the world you were from, conflict is not uncommon when introducing a new set of opinions into any social environment.

</Peace Keeping Role>

[RiceThief]

You can get the 2L in tbi form to go hard, redzone's car is a good example of this. Quest has taken offence to the fact that i said the emanage is no good to widebody uk as he is going mpi. He seems to think that I am putting down any starion with TBI and for what ever reason needs to defend it. On top of that while agreeing that having fuel and ign control is better he needs to defend the starions that have fuel only computers. Finally hes taken offence to my living life a 1/4 mile at a time comment.

It all boils down to this widebody uk has decided to go mpi, the emanage computer is not an option for this which is what he asked. He doesnt have enough money to buy a fuel and ign computer so I said to choose the fuelinjectionpro that quest recommended as its upgradable later and better than the sdefi because it is upgradable. The other option is to drive the tbi injection around until he can buy a base level computer such as the wolf v4, ems stinger or microtech.

[honest_jim]

i didnt go the MPi route due to lack of time and money. Being a stinky student i got nearly all my mods off ebay and the car goes well. Ive had to make a new turbo header (tubular jobby) because of a massive crack in the standard one. I made a new down pipe at the same time. All my fueling mods are basic add on's FCD 2 extra injectors running off a haltech f5 thingy, an old 5 dial type safc and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. The car now makes 14 / 16psi (low / high boost settings) at about 3300rpm.

If id had enough money at one time i would have gone mpi and ign in one go but wasnt to be. i still want more low end performance so im planning on getting some kind of mappable ignition before too long.

However i was suprised how well it does all work together the A/F graph from my LM1 is now after some messing about nice and smooth and richens up nicley.

:beer

[quest]

Rice,
I will dumb this down for you, since you're retarded :)

I understand your tbi plight, but if you recommend a FCD, you're assuming a healthy operating tbi staz.

GM maft + mafs is ~$250usd. You don't need to "waste money" on a FCD.
GM maft allows you to tune your fuel curve via trim pots fairly easy.
Can be d.i.y. installed, AND tuned in minutes and enjoyed 'right NOW'.
A/F verified with widebands. No tuner, dyno or downtime. Imagine that.
Folks have realized significant improvements installing the GM maft "immediately", NO waiting and posted full details. mpi? some rope?

FCD implies turning up boost past 'oe safe limit'. How do you tune your A/F ratios throughout the rpm band as the *adjustable* maft can, using a FCD ? Answer that.
Yet you make this stupid 'non-mpi' suggestion, but label the maft or EM as 'a waste' ? Thats sensible advice ? here, have some more rope.

Lets say you -eventually- want a pump gas, 400whp, tire smoking MPI/60-1 daily driven street car. Any idea what a turbo, header, inlet, ecu, cam, etc. costs ?? Add it up.
So you start gathering the parts. Sure u can wait, and wait, and wait while u live with boring oe perfomance ?
But life's short, so in the meantime...
Why not a GM maft, then a $400 mitsu 17c turbo upgrade or so.
Results; A tremendous improvement in performance all around!
Daily driver has run 12sec ET. Smokes the tires on dry road instantly = excellent response, and pulls hard thru the rev band until the cam falls off, snappy part throttle and tq everywhere.
What more could you want for your money, explain ?

Now tell us how much better does your mpi behave in your daily commute, then explain why this car "lives a 1/4 mile at a time only".
Tell us how much better yours performs in the 1/4.
Look what he spent. Now tell me why HE is 'plain stupid' ? rope
A wise man calls it a smart decision and enjoying life, *today*.

Folks (like UK) have began the MPI trek, but first gone down the tbi mod path and guess what ? They're surprised AND satisfied by the level of performance. Next you see mpi bits up for sale. Why r they stupid ?? You jump all over my input for bringing this to light. Best way to answer his question is to address his goals, u r too stupid to see that.

You know/care nothing about UK widebodys' goals, but you're so dam sure a 'hot tbi' meeting his goals is totally out of the question.
All I've brought to the table are ' realistic choices/alternatives' and you do nothing but sit on your arse and tear them down.
You've never seen me tear down anything. Closeminded fools always waste their energy on the negative, as they are too blind to see there is no benefit whatsoever. I concentrate on the positive, as it only leads to productive, good things.

>>cars without programble ign, they drive like a stock starion
disagree totally. Screw that 2 decade nonsense too, foolishness.
Fastest street 2.6 on tiny 12A ran 12.8sec, sds fuel-only, no spray. 'drives like a stock starion'? Surrrree, because u say so! more rope?

sdsefi fuel-only is upgradeable. Keep advising, you know all.


fr335tyl3r
I've owned both 2L and 2.6L staz
tbi mods won't do any less for a 2L as it does the 2.6 per se. How many have even moded tbi, then compare directly to various mpi ? Results speak for themselves.
"it depends what results you are looking for" = my point exactly, *especially* if it could be accomplished at a fraction of the cost, time, AND fits the budget.... I'm "plain stupid" for presenting worthwhile considerations.

[fr335tyl3r]

fr335tyl3r
I've owned both 2L and 2.6L staz
tbi mods won't do any less for a 2L as it does the 2.6 per se. How many have even moded tbi, then compare directly to various mpi ? Results speak for themselves.
"it depends what results you are looking for" = my point exactly, *especially* if it could be accomplished at a fraction of the cost, time, AND fits the budget.... I'm "plain stupid" for presenting worthwhile considerations.

ok thats fair enough then. I would have thought that the 2L would need more work (ie mpi) to achieve similar results in torque in the low end of the rev spectrum due to its decreased displacement (ie, to make the engine respond better you are going to have to do more, compared with a 2.6L where torque is already available on tap with relatively limited mods as shown by the yanks).

you are exactly right, it does depend on the results you are looking for and a lot of the reason the aus guys go for mpi over tbi stuff is that we don't have access to the same gear that you do over there for tbi modifications. a lot of the time mpi conversions are done to remove the "gremlins" that appear in the stock ign/injection system and doing a full replacement means our cars will run reliably indefinetly (mrb1s car is an example of this...until he got greedy and blew the engine :D).

I would like you to point out, however, where I called you plain stupid. Seems like the USA is creating their own intelligence again ;) </stirring...that was a joke>

[KiwiStaz]

Has anyone else noticed that there has been over 40 posts since widebody UK has posted on here?

Maybe its because everyone is to busy saying mine is better, bigger etc than actually anwering the question he originally posted. Hows this? I bet 99% of this stuff would work but it is wideys choice and you guys should stop trying to see who can piss the furtherest.

Speaking of bigger, I used to be embarrassed by my 3 inch dick until I found women liked it that wide.

[RiceThief]

Since you're still not understanding what I am saying I will have to dumb myself down to your level so I can communicate more effectively.

If you modify the tbi injection system with a emanage would you not expect or want a healthy operating tbi or does adding one magically make it healthy in operation.

The emanage is 600 in australia, fcd is $150, even less second hand, you could probably just use a resistor and trimpot but it wouldnt be ideal. Does the emanage have a input for a wideband sensor? If not then thats 800 aud for a wideband meter and sensor here. I have no problems with the emanage, it applies to alot of people who dont want to go through the trouble of an mpi conversion. But fact is you cant use the emanage for an mpi conversion which is what widebody uk asked in the first place. Worked out how to tie the rope yet?

Does redzone's car have any issues with a/f ratio's without an adjustable maft? A 13.9 sec car with almost stock everything isnt something to sneeze at and isnt boring oe performance. What is your point with 400whp car, its not going to be cheap anyway you do it, you wait and save up in either case. As I said theres nothing wrong going the gm and turbo upgrade, you just have to ask yourself do you want a high sec performer for the moment and put the money towards the 400hp setup, or spend money on the gm and turbo upgrade have your 12 sec car and wait longer.

Again with the 1/4 mile comment, is that all you have to base your arguement against me? Try and find something else I said to pick on, cause its getting boring. The improvements i found when I went the ign setup was being able to increase the ign timing at the point where car sits at idle and when you blip the throttle, giving better throttle response when taking off and improved off boost response. I've never taken my car down the 1/4 it doesnt interest me, qr is a circuit not a drag strip.

As i said previously im not arguing which is better between the mpi and the tbi, if people are happy with a tbi setup then thats great, they've save money and time in installing a mpi. When have I ever called anyone stupid for modifying a tbi setup, your imagination has gone wild on this one.

I dont know widebody uk's goals because i dont know his circumstances, he could be going mpi because his tbi setup is stuffed and it worked out not more costly to go to mpi which was my case. When have i tear any of your options down, i have no bias to either setup and have given my experiece with my setup, not anyone elses. Widebody uk is an adult and can make his own decisions. You dont need to be like the US president and invade this post, theres no terrorist or oil here :D (for quest sake this is a joke too).

Are you saying that 2 decades of technology improvement has done nothing for cars. Who's being closed minded now, I've had the fortune of driving friends cars who are into later model cars and there are improvements to they way they drive, if you dont realise that then you are really an idiot. Drives like a stock starion, read that comment in context, we are talking about drivability not performance, forget about the rope, read before you comment, or are you having trouble reading through the two small holes cut into the white sheet you are wearing?

If the sdsefi is upgradable then thats great theres another option for widebody uk. Its up to him now to decide what features the various computers are available and figure out whats best for his application based on the price and functions.

[quest]

fr335tyl3r
never said you called me anything. I was being facetous, re other posts.
we share the same dilema with our ageing cars and reasons for mpi conversions. Difference is, once you've tasted a 'hot' tbi it can change your outlook, and has. Many haven't, so they'll never know.
When using relatively small mitsu turbos, boost + a reasonable tune is what wakes these 2/2.6L sohc motors up, not mpi. Spools early, thats where you get your torque from. Many tbi dyno graph will show this.


Rice,
I see you can't dumb down any, its your natural state :)

Emanage capabilities far excede other piggys mentioned. Its proven its worth.
Wideband sensor is a tuning asset mpi or tbi. Why tack it on to tbi mod price ? You make no sense, as usual. Lots of fast tbi cars here without WB too. WB prices falling drastically.
FCD useless for mpi either, so why do you suggest it ? Stupid ?
You need no help with your knots.

Redzone is obviously a smart cat. 13.9 is nothing to sneeze at, you think 12s is ?
We have heaps of moded tbi cars using;
fpr, FCD, hacked mafs, other mitsu mafs, maft, safc, maft, EM etc...
You think we don't know what yields the 'best' tbi a/f ratios AND performance. I offered a 'proven' better and inexpensive alternative that u deem 'plain stupid', as if u know best.

>>at and isnt boring oe performance (redzone).
but, but.... you say it drives like a stock starion without prog ign.
Does it ? Whats that, I can't hear you, you're choking.

>>As I said theres nothing wrong going the gm and turbo upgrade
where did you say that ? I only suggested it a few posts up. Must be my(cough) wild imagination (cough).

>>"you just have to ask yourself do you want a...... installing a mpi"
No way! Your mom must've helped ya with this one. You actually start to make sense. I knew a good choking might get you thinking clearly. Its working. Now loosen the rope a bit, its affecting your 'stupid' posts, seriously :)

>>"When have I ever called anyone stupid for modifying a tbi... "
You called my 'tbi path recommendations stupid. Don't try to change your talk. UK hadn't even purchase the mpi inlet yet, did he ?

>>"Are you saying that 2 decades of technology improvement has done nothing for cars."
Don't put words in my mouth. If you're going to play the technology card (prog ign particularly), then make no mention of a pos 2v dinosaur motor we're having fun with ? You're mixed up, once agin

[RiceThief]

Calling me dumb is like a pot calling a kettle black, you should be a poster child for education department there and give kids a reason to stay in school.

Here we go again, emanage computer is great if you want to modify the tbi, but useless for mpi, thats what I have said from the start and that is what widebody uk is asking. Why did i add the wideband sensor to the price maybe cause i dont know what im talking about or maybe its because the entry level computers like the wolf v4 and ems stinger has an input for a wideband oxygen sensor so you wont need to go out a buy a wideband a/f meter. I would ask you to go hang yourself but you still dont know how to tie a knot.

When have I deemed any of your alternatives stupid, point it out in any of my post, i havent edited any of them, maybe if you read what i wrote you wouldnt be arguing the same arguement all the time.

Yep i said it drives like a stock starion, we are talking about drivability, read my previous post, werent we talking about drivability not performance, whats that you havent learn to read yet.

I said the gm is a good option if you are going to modify agreed with you there some post up, why dont you look back as i said i havent edited any of my post so its all there. Its not your wild imagination its your inability to read.

So we are bringing in mums to the topic now, nice one, i've stopped using that comeback back in primary school so im a little rusty with it.

Again you need to read where did i say modifying the tbi is stupid, go back and read the posts. Widebody uk asked if he can use the emanage for mpi, i told its useless for mpi, and you defended the emanage giving all these options for tbi. Why the stupid comment because you arent answering his question, tbi is an alternative why didnt you sugguest it earlier. By the way i asked if u were stupid or can not read you obviously choose the stupid option so really is dumb now?

Who's putting words into who's mouth, when did I call the 2v motor a pos, is it your wild imagination? Who said screw that 2 decade nonsense too, foolishness.

So what round are we at, also the rope comment is getting overused now, i hope you can find something else.

[mrb1]

side note
It is blatantly clear that 'u.s. hate' is alive and well here.

Hey man that's not true. Chill out a bit.
We have so many locally produced ECU's here the last thing people think of for older cars is expensive Japanese electronics (like emanage, etc).

At the end of the day MPI will give far better results. This is also a pretty cheap option for us.

[WANTSOM]

Quest,

I have stood on the sidelines to your posts for a long time and said nothing. This last round has spelled enough. You came on the forum some time ago sprouting all that was great about the US Starion scene.

It is but for christ sake man why do you have to argue the point on everything and then when someone questions you or has an alternative view you go all defensive and start saying how we all hate Americans.

Mate just frikkin chill out and accept that not everything is bigger and better in America. You are talking from a very insulated position. Hell we poor "dumb" Aussies just happened to invent Motec, Haltech, the Black box flight recorder to name just a few. Our own MRB1 (who you seem to dismiss so readily) would eat you for breakfast in the ECU/Injection/Ignition field. And if you think I'm kidding do some research and then pull your head in.

I dont hate the US but your particular attitude sucks. Chill out and join in the mateship here and leave your snide and childish comments at home.

Personally I know less than "Jack" about all this ECU stuff but from what I have learned what you are proposing in your box of tricks is all achievable in one very small "Australian designed" box. And we did it all on our own. :beer

[Junkers]

Perhaps this thread should be locked while the forum still has some dignity.