Twincam Conversion Kits. Would it be worth it?

[www.18u]

I have thought about making one for a few years now, but seeing as there are so many ways of building a twincam (turbos, thermo housings, water pumps, wide vs narrow blocks and ect) would it really be worth attempting? Companies like Maddat make ca and sr kits for 1600's, and most people who do this conversion just buy there kit because it is has already been engineered and proven. Yes the ca and sr come in rwd already, and the Maddat kit is more about making the car fit the engine not the engine fitting the car but i think you get my idea.

The problem with a twincam 4g63 rwd conversion seems to be that there is two different types of people who attempt such a conversion.

1: People using stock turbos ecu and injectors. Only modding the absolute neccisary parts.

2: There is other people who want big power and use forged internals, custom plenums and externally gated turbos with an aftermarket ecu.

So here is what i was thinking. There is some really good pieces of gear already out there if you know where to look, so why not support them and use some of thier pieces in a conersion kit. Depending on the type of conversion supply the required parts from one of these suppliers, as well as some local made bits and pieces.

It just seems that 90% of the conversion parts are already out there but the last 10% is what stops people from attempting this.

Most people choose a sr20 or another engine because it is already made in rwd form and woud cost less to fit into whatever car you want. I just want to make the 4g63 twincam, more of a viable option to a wider range of people by making it rwd compatible not making it for one specific car.

Can you imagine a website that you could buy everything from thermostat adaptors to bellhousings or exchange modded inlet manifolds or aftermarket ones off the shelf

Would it be worth it? I guess only people who have done the conversion the hard way can really answer this..... Would you buy a kit or specific parts, rather than doing it the way you did it?

[MrBishi]

What's the target market?
Starions and other mitsi RWDs (sigma etc)? Not enough demand and generally owners too tight.
Drifting scene? I could see this working. Most people know that evo motors are good shit and providing an easy 'kit' to allow twin-cams to be bolted into anything RWD could be appealing. However you would have to get your name out there and put runs on the board.

There are so many options and opinions on what is 'good' ie. if your kit used a hypertune inlet and a supra gearbox, some would cry over not using a JMF and a T56 gearbox.

The website could only work if you could provide competitive prices too.

[MainstreaM]

This guy makes or can make damn near anything you need for the conversion. I've got his bellhousing and he is making a rwd intake for me. Just he's on the wrong side of the pond for you guys.

http://www.billsautofab.com/

Kane

[iXNAY]

i think the biggest headache for people now doing a twin cam conversion is the exhaust manifold there is no off the shelf item that anyone can get.

our forums along with project zero g have pushed this conversion well ahead of where it was 3 years ago - this conversion used to be scary but now anyone can tackle it with a fair amount of confidence/knowledge

if there was a "generic kit" the needed parts would be:
- rear thermo adapter (modified for longer exit)
- front mounted thermostat set up
- magnus/jmf inlet manifold (or cut and shut stocker)
- water pump/water outlet pipe
- bill's bell houses for his many listed gearboxes
- coil on plug (or stock vr4 coils)
- rocker cover breathers
- redzone power steering bracket for SOHC bottom ends
- custom exhaust manifold - this might not be in kit due to so many different set ups

[1320ft]

Having previously used a Maddat kit on my 1200 ute, it was great. It would good if it was just a simple website where you could go, order all the bits for your individual conversion (ie sohc block & dohc head etc) and they would just get sent.

[www.18u]

This is exactly why i posted this up. Demand and feeback will be what make the products sell. As stated i am aiming at making the twincam 4g63 rwd compliant for any vehicle, not one specific model. Whatever car you put it in it will still require engine mounts, cooler pipes and other custom parts. I am just making the engine a viable option for the masses.

if there was a "generic kit" the needed parts would be:
- rear thermo adapter (modified for longer exit)
- front mounted thermostat set up
- magnus/jmf inlet manifold (or cut and shut stocker)
- water pump/water outlet pipe
- bill's bell houses for his many listed gearboxes
- coil on plug
- rocker cover breathers
- custom exhaust manifold - this might not be in kit due to so many different set ups

Ok so it seem ixnay is getting the idea of what i am getting at. I am a big fan of suppoting other forums and products, and this is why i want to utilise thier parts. I believe bill's bell housings are far better quality than dellows, however giving the customer the option of both and pricing should help them make a decision.

However you would have to get your name out there and put runs on the board.

Already on that one buddy the ex is setup as a rolling testbed.

[redzone]

i thought about doing this a couple of years ago but i didnt think the effort VS return would be there so i didnt bother..

maybe it's something to look at again. magazines etc are FINALLY realising the 4G63/64 is a better base than the SR. plus i'm getting a website built at the moment actually.

i think as long as you had the basic parts there (bellhousing etc for narrowblock users, thermohousing adapters/remote thermostat, p/s bracket for early block users, rwd exh manifold etc etc then have options so people can customise their kit to suit their car..

[iXNAY]

i think as a community we need to look at casting a ext manifold!

[www.18u]

I agree with Redzone. The market is becoming larger, however i believe selling a entire kit depending on your budget and engine choice will still be a hard sell. As for a manifold, you would need two types. One with a td style flange for the original turbos, and another with a t3 flange and external gate, as this seems to be the most common turbo choice for big power players.

[JDSTAZ45]

Just to give people a better idea, what would a kit cost from a bare minimum to a high performance set up (ball park figure)??

Would it just be worthwhile concentrating on getting the 10% that's hard to get, such as exhaust manifold etc??

[NXTIME]

My suggestion would be to make a list of all the parts that people can buy individually to suit their needs simply due to the various ways of having the conversion done, therefore they can taylor the 'kit' to suit their own individual conversion needs.

Or, you could have both the individual parts and also the complete kit to suit high end power as well as standard-ish power.

[redzone]

plus there's also the narrow vs wideblock debacle

[NXTIME]

Yep. I also think that the AUs market is too small, hence a website that opens up the market to US, EU etc would be ideal.

[WANTSOM]

Shannon, I gave this some thought when I was doing the thermostat adaptor. There is a fair bit of work that would have to go into it and to make it worthwhile financially you would need to manufacture/fabricate the individual components in batches of at least 10 even 20 items to get the volume benefits and savings. So 20 thermostat adaptors, 20 remote thermostat housings, 20 hard lines, 20 silicone connectors and then the same with 20 power steering brackets, 20 alternator relocation brackets and so on. Thats a fair $ investment to lay down for a potentially small market here in Australia. The US is a much bigger market but they tend to stick to there own (I know I tried to raise some interest in the T/S adaptors on Project 0 and got a very lukewarm reception. Bill seems to be their founding father and god, not knocking him but he is established there and hard to break in to his domain.

I know you arent doing this to make money but realistically you would be pricing a complete kit at somewhere in the $3K bracket (including a n exhaust manifold design) by the time it was all finished and even at a small batch run of 10 for each component thats an outlay of $30K approx. Of course if one possessed the necessary fabication skills to make it all yourself or had contacts into a cheap manufacturing base
(eg Taiwan/China) the cost could drop considerably.

What we do need for the moment though is a parts source listing to allow people to mix and match the variables ie Corolla AE82 remote thermostat housing can be used, The various inlet manifold options, exhaust manifold fabricators who can do it etc. Dave's gone part way there with his thread but as you say there is a heap of knowledge out there now and a lot of the 'headache' issues have been solved but it needs to be documented and recorded.

I can get the thermostat adaptors done again but I cant fund a run of 15 atm and then wait to sell the 7 or 8 that wouldnt be sold straight away.

[www.18u]

Some really good points here. Thank you to everyone who has commented. This really has been a interesting thread.

I originally wanted to sell other peoples products along side some of mine making it a one stop shop. Going off your opinions in this thread, it seems you would rather a place that has all the knowledge combined from various websites, and has links to the distributors for the already made parts.... Am i right?

What else do we need? Well the last 10% of the parts that are not available.... Agreed?

Making money is not the big issue here, but i am not going to go backwards at the same time.

Making a kit would have been great, but as Greg has stated, everyones needs are different and you just can't accomodate them all. You just will end up with stock that never gets sold.

So this brings us back to the other 10% of missing parts. What do you think they are the missing links to make this a better proposition for those without fabrication skills.

This is some of what i think would help get the average persons twincam project out of trouble depending on thier wide or narrow situation.

Exhaust manifolds: One for a td flange and internal gate, the other t3 flange and external gate.

A new water pulley for using the "Starion" style water pump on a vr4 motor. (yes you still need to gring the casting off the pump)

Adaptor plates for narrow motors to the starion "km" style box

A front mounted CAS setup

Front and rear thermostat adaptors.

Not a big list of parts, but these parts would allow the average "starion" owner as a example to upgrade to a twincam and using thier existing parts keeping costs down. We all know how easy a tc conversion blows out of budget