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avandulls_gal
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Post by avandulls_gal »

there's still heaps of debate in the medical/psychiatric/psychological community regarding meds for plain depression (bi-polar is an entirely different story). My personal opinion....I emphasise PERSONAL.....is that in most instances of depression it's best to look for a social/situational cause (eg, your g/f left you). Then you can focus on ways of coping with that better rather than just getting on meds which fixes the symptom, but not the cause.

However moods are influenced by neurochemicals...in fact that's all moods are...differing levels of chemicals in your brain.

Most of the time they change levels depending on what you are doing at the time...eg partying with friends or having just been dumped for that cute assed blonde down the street. For some people (I happen to think it's the minority of people with diagnosed "depression") it is an actual brain malfunction...not producing enough of one chemical, too much of another, bits not doing what they're supposed to. In these instances meds can be very very helpful because there is generally no identifiable situation that has caused the depression - ie they are depressed for no other reason than their brain is wonky. They have a wonderful family, everyone loves them, best job in the world, very satisfied with life etc - they just feel like shit all the time.

I'm gonna shut up now before I turn into one of my lecturers :oops:
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Post by Junkers »

Thats quite interesting, you witness that sort of stuff more than you realise.
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Post by tmz_99 »

avandulls_gal wrote: Most of the time they change levels depending on what you are doing at the time...eg partying with friends or having just been dumped for that cute assed blonde down the street. For some people (I happen to think it's the minority of people with diagnosed "depression") it is an actual brain malfunction...not producing enough of one chemical, too much of another, bits not doing what they're supposed to. In these instances meds can be very very helpful because there is generally no identifiable situation that has caused the depression - ie they are depressed for no other reason than their brain is wonky. They have a wonderful family, everyone loves them, best job in the world, very satisfied with life etc - they just feel like shit all the time.
The trick is being aware of this, a person can change the chemical imbalance in their head by doing things such as excercising and having sex (both of which release dopamine) or even eating chocholate or smoking to some extent (although the negative side effects of these are sometimes best left avoided). There are also other holistic medicines one can try such as L-Tyrosine which stimulates the gland in your brain that produces ceratonin. Failing that meditation such as yoga may also provide the answer. Yes, drugs are the easy way out, but the side effects of even prescription drugs can be quite damaging, and certainly being the easy way out they show the low effort these individuals are expressing at getting out of their situation.
Basically yes, I believe that your garden variety clynically depressed individual will find it harder to try and sort their life out and get out of depression, but therein their weakness exists. In today's modern society where survival of the fittest no longer applies perhaps mental problems can cause these defunct individuals to eradicate themselves.
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Post by Cordzboy »

I've been closely involved with a severe depression case - meds certainly seemed to help in the short term (2 months), but most definitely caused massive long term side-effects. The whole situation would've been better handled if meds were never involved.
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avandulls_gal
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Post by avandulls_gal »

I just wrote a 3 page reply to that. Took a look at myself, thought "nerd" and deleted it. Count yoursleves lucky :roll:
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Post by tmz_99 »

avandulls_gal wrote:I just wrote a 3 page reply to that. Took a look at myself, thought "nerd" and deleted it. Count yoursleves lucky :roll:
but we want to know :D nothing like a good intelectual debate! :D
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avandulls_gal
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Post by avandulls_gal »

all right....but you asked for it :P

as I said, I agree that the vast majority of people with depression should not be using medications. Their first and foremost treatment should be cognitive/behavioural, not drugs. I personally think doctors are way too quick at prescribing medications (and drug companies should take a lot of the blame for this). In these instances the drugs are pointles, they don't fix the problem (a shitty marriage is still going to be shitty no matter how much prozac you take) and they do have some nasty side effects.

However it has to be noted that for some people (and I emphasise SOME - nowhere near the amount of people who are on drugs currently) actually have a physical deficit - like a heart condition. There are lots of things you can do for a heart condition to help relieve it - good diet, cardivascular excercise to keep fit, don't smoke, don't drink, avoid stress. However without medication a heart problem (say angina or a leaky valve) is very risky. This is becasue the excercise good diet etc haven't fixed the actual problem...the heart is still not functioning as it should.

The same goes for people who have a physical problem with the parts of the brain that regulate mood. For these people even those activities which do improve mood don't do it anywhere near as well for them becasue that part of their brain just isn't functioning normally.

It's a matter of individualising treatment. Some (I would say MOST) people will be best with cognitive behavioural treatments for their depression - drugs just won't be anywhere near as effective. However where these IS a problem with the brain, there is no situational factor to work on - just the brain. Therefore cognitive behavioural treatments (self treatment included by the way) can help (particularly those that increase good chemicals like sex and excercise -however keep in mind that if their neurochemical systems aren't functioning properly, they may not react in the exactly same manner) but like a heart problem, it still doesn't fix the physical problem.

Currently the understanding of depression is that it is due to not enough seratonin and that this imbalance could possibly be caused by 1) not enough seratonin being produced 2) seratonin being reabsorbed too quickly so it's not being used or 3)which I forget. The most popular antidepressants currently are called Selective Seratonin Reuptake Inhibitors which stop the seratonin being removed from the system before it is used therefore effectively increasing seratonin levels. (I won't bore you with a 3 hour lecture on the most spectacularly interesting workings of the neuron :x )

In most people seratonin levels can be increased by cognitive/behavioural stuff like bitching about that asshole with your girlfriends with a heap of scrummy chocolate. BUT if your brain isn't working the way it should it might not be ABLE to produce more seratonin than it is or it may not be ABLE to stop reabsorbing it, so that no matter what you do your brain is always working against you. In these instances the drugs act a bit like a pacemaker - they take on the job of the busted bit.

I feel like a parrot, but again I emphasise that this is the minority of depression. The majority (in my humble opinion) is mostly situational ( situational eg: your wife just walked in and said "um I think I might have had a little accident with the draino on your new all pure leather interior")

of course it's still not entirely clear exacly how the brain works and we still don't know what all the neurochemicals do....in fact they're still not entirely sure precisely how seratonin works but at least they have a fairly good idea of what it's involved with.

The point I'm trying to make is that most depression which is what most of you would be familiar with is caused by circumstances. If your dog just died on the day you lost your job and they posted a demolition notice on your house it's no bloody wonder you're depressed. Don't take a pill, talk to some friends, go out and spurge on something, get a therapist, have a good cry and beat your pillow up (assuming it didn't get demolished with the house yet) cause after you stop taking the pills your life will still be crap. If you really have to take pills, only take them while you need to stay calm enough to work on your problems and in the mean time WORK ON THEM. But you should still be aware that there are OTHER kinds of depression out there...not just that, there are kinds of mental problems other than depression and they should all be treated individually.

Now I've finished my tirade i'll let you know that I just burnt dinner. I'm sooooo depressed.........

:x :wink:
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scum
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Post by scum »

im not reading that, its depressing. :wink:
I figured out the meaning of life, and since then every day just gets worse.

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Post by Fryman »

dude that sucks :(
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Post by tmz_99 »

do you believe that these disorders can be genetic? maybe we are better of letting these people self medicate with a shotgun rather then reproducing?

Also, don't you think life would be boring if everyone had happy, richly satisfying lives?
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avandulls_gal
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Post by avandulls_gal »

well if we say we should let people with depression self medicate with a shotgun, why bother treating people who've had a heart problem or cancer or eye sight problems, or who get the flu....let natural selection take its course. But that's an argument of opinion and ethics. It has no correct answer.

Do i think depression is genetic.....well i don't think anything is 100% genetic or environmental. I'd hazard a guess that situational depression would be less influenced by genes than depression that has a physical cause since genes can't determine what environment we're in, only our physical make up (although it may influence how we deal with the environment). This answer is not based on any studies. I'd have to do some reading...which isn't going to happen any time soon. Even if it were 100% genetic, that doesn't mean that getting rid of all people who have it whill prevent it appearing again....nor does it mean that you are guaranteed of passing it on. There is always variation in the mixing of X and Y chromosomes and there is always room for genetic mutation.

Regarding rich and satisfying lives: yes life would be boring. Research has shown that in order to feel fulfilled and to experience personal growth people need challenges, including crap stuff like girlfriends leaving you and even people dying. The way in which you deal with it (and most people eventually deal with it VERY effectively and experience personal growth after such events) can mean you learn about yourself, Revise your view on life, find new strengths, expand your horizons etc. Feeling down is normal and natural...it's not clinincal depression. There is a difference betwen feeling "depressed" and actually being clinically depressed. The difference is when the depressive reaction is abnormally severe or abnormally long and causing problems for the persons life that are beyond what you would normally expect - ie they are not responding to the stresses of life in a normal way

I hate sounding like a lecturer :oops:

BTW, apologies to Scum for taking over the thread....nice conversation transformation. We went from screwed up oil to the intricacies of depression treatment in how many posts? Oh and comiserations with the oil too....I was betting on bleach in the oil following that Mythbusters episode Guess that just proves i CAN be wrong . :P
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Post by Junkers »

avandulls, Do you know what codeine stimulates in the body?
avandulls_gal
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Post by avandulls_gal »

um, from my vague memories of lectures on drugs....codeine doesn't stimulate anything, it's a depressant like alcohol (hence it's use in pain relief). I think it operates in the central nervous system by blocking neural receptors so that neurochemicals can't pass on their messages (don't ask me which ones....I probably wouldn't be able to spell them anyway). This acts to slow everything down which is why drugs you get from the chemists that have codeine in them (cold and flu, panadeine etc) often have a warning to not do anything dangerous like operate heavy machinery or combine them with other depressants when you're affected becaue they can slow your reactions, make you tired etc.

Why do you ask?
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Post by Junkers »

A while back I had to take them while I was ill, they didn't depress me at all, put me in a state of euphoria and sent me bouncing off the walls, curious as to what could do that.
avandulls_gal
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Post by avandulls_gal »

depressant doesn't mean it makes you "depressed" it means it inhibits neural funtioning. The reason it made you bounce off the walls would probably be becasue, like alcohol, it reduces your ability to monitor and control your behaviour....ie it reduced your inhibitions. Its usual effects are to induce relaxation, tiredness, dizziness, clumsiness, weakness, pain releif etc. Heroine (which is a related drug, along with morphiene, pseudoephidrine and a bunch of others) is usually said to be like the ultimate orgasm....ie an immense sense of relief and release - ultimate relaxation.
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