the shit going down in iraq

[tmz_99]

lol.. a religious debate.:D I suggest that another thread be started, altho war and religion do intertwine it would make this almost-sealed argument far too long.. hehe..:D:D

[Project2501]

Its just an indication that this conflict in the Middle East was partially motivated by religious grounds. It just cant be helped, Im afraid. I myself am aetheist (though i went through Gutter_Rat's notion of brainwashing early on in life: I was baptised a catholic) which allows me to take a more objective view on things. As it stands, I still believe ALL religions are cults, large or small. They are sectarian and all dispute the existence of each other.

Its a sad fact that this war really is turning out to be a small scale "jihad".

Oh well.

I cannot condone America or Australia's involvement in this war, full stop.
If it was up to me, our troops would be home guarding our perimeter, performing humanitarian duties where they are needed. Trouble wont come looking for us if we dont go looking for it. EG why the conflict has been centred around the US has been because of their "big brother" approach to the world. Why wont the US take this approach with China or Nth Korea? Ha! I dare them.

I also believe the "western" empire that has been entrenched in history thus far (western society has been the only prevailing invading/conquering/settling society in the near past) is failing.. Rome did fall if you all remember. I just cannot wait until the next empire takes its mantle, and i hope it is an honourable one.

Australia cannot claim to be honourable, vis: detention of children, REPEATED lies by our commanding ministers, total disregard for the world community, capitalisation and outright whoring of poorer nations etc. Notice how the continents that arent arguing amongst themselves (EU, Africa) or dying of poverty (Russia, Sth America, South East Asia) are the only ones not trying to invade other countries.

cheers

tom.

[tmz_99]

It just cant be helped, Im afraid. I myself am aetheist (though i went through Gutter_Rat's notion of brainwashing early on in life: I was baptised a catholic) which allows me to take a more objective view on things. As it stands, I still believe ALL religions are cults, large or small. They are sectarian and all dispute the existence of each other.

yep, I know where ur coming from, the catholics tried to brainwash me as well when I was growing up, fortunately Ive managed to convince my family to be atheist and my younger sisters didnt have to go through the same shit I did.

Altho I do disagree that all religions are cults, I think that for people in a bad situation a religion offers hope, altho it may be false it may be enough to get them out of whatever rut they may be in. But I do think that religion doesnt need a place in society as large as it does now, why should we swear to god when in court or metion him in the pledge of allegiance, etc.. religion no longer deserves a role in politics.
In my opinion religion was useful in historical times when the government lacked the organisation and legal system it has now, whereas now the result of commiting crimes is going to jail, in ages past when the resources were not there, people didnt steal because they would burn in purgetory or whatever...

I cannot condone America or Australia's involvement in this war, full stop.
If it was up to me, our troops would be home guarding our perimeter, performing humanitarian duties where they are needed. Trouble wont come looking for us if we dont go looking for it.

thats the stance NZ takes, only ever send humanitarian aid, when asked for armed forces they send medics. Also have anti-nuclear policy, no US nucelar ship or anything may sail in their waters, effectively making them less of a target. Here in Perth we get a US aircraft carrier docking once every 3 months, makes perth a perfect target.

I also believe the "western" empire that has been entrenched in history thus far (western society has been the only prevailing invading/conquering/settling society in the near past) is failing.. Rome did fall if you all remember. I just cannot wait until the next empire takes its mantle, and i hope it is an honourable one.

I tend to disagree with this, I do agree with your analogy comparing western society and rome, however I feel the scope of your argument is too broad. I dont think ALL western countries will fall. The fall of rome was basically due to the social and moral degregation of their society. From the upper echelons (such as government) which eventually filtered down throughout the whole society. I dont feel places such as europe, NZ, and australia are going to be facing this situation soon, but I do see america losing grip on itself farily soon. The amount of murders and other attorcities occuring there are making the general population perverse.

Im not sure about a new world order coming soon however, Europe looks poised in a very strong position, as does the asian sector.. I dont think we will ever go back to the "one empire rules all" model.

Australia cannot claim to be honourable, vis: detention of children, REPEATED lies by our commanding ministers, total disregard for the world community, capitalisation and outright whoring of poorer nations etc. Notice how the continents that arent arguing amongst themselves (EU, Africa) or dying of poverty (Russia, Sth America, South East Asia) are the only ones not trying to invade other countries.

I don't see australia itself as being a dishonerable country, as a microcosm of australian society Austarion shows very well that the majority of people living here are indeed friendly and selfless. However the politicians in this country are corrupt, and so are the police, which could eventually lead to the same situation as in the US.
You're correct, the politicians lie all the time. But all this shows is how complacent the people are, we are after all the ones who are letting them get away with it.
I disagree u saying that Africa isnt arguing amongst itself, the situation in africa is very bad. But they and other developing nations have to focus on internal stuggle and devlopment rather then having time or resources to invade other countries.
Anyways, there is hope for Australia yet, we still live a much better life then most of the coutries out there and I think we should be pretty happy about that, that said however I dont think we should be happy with our government, and the problem is that in Australia there just isnt the choice, either way ur gonna get sum1 whos a completely corrupt asshole. :S

[Project2501]

good points, tmz_99, all good points.

My view on the general "western" decline stems from the fact that population wise, economy wise and technology wise they are in decline. Give it a few decades, give it a millenia, but they will fall, no doubt.

Perth only became a US naval base after the commencement of the conflict in Iraq, didnt it? Which means that was part of our "grovellling" so to speak. And also proves my point before about Australia being a tactical bit of land, nothing more. Everyone wants to dock their ships here.

EU would be a very powerful nation, if they would only get over their bickering. And i think i didnt type correctly, but I had meant that Africa and EU were the ones bickering amongst themselves with internal conflict. Not to mention Africa is probably the most destitute continent around.

Ah well, bipartisan politics will always eventuate in one asshole being elected over another. But what has shocked me the most is the amount of lies espoused by J Howard & Co. It has been repeatedly reported, filtered and consumed by the population, and I am left wondering where the populations sense of reason has gone. Its sad that we cannot do anything about our bastard politicians. Voting one out means voting the other in. I digress though, its a lot more desired than having to bear with one despot after another as in a dictatorship (sic)..

Man i think im headed for a career in politics.. someone help me!!!!!!!


tom.

[Paradoxx]

I dont think we really have much of a choice when it comes to fighting with the US in Iraq. They decided to go to war with terrorism (and "they" did, it wasnt just a case of "Bush" did, i think the majority of US citizens are backing it 100%) and due to the fact i mentioned in my previous post they are a very powerful ally, and if we didnt provide some support they would have something to say about it if we asked for help. The troops in Iraq from Aus are nowhere near the high risk areas, so our role is not quite the same as the US soldiers. I think this is a very good thing considering our current defence force numbers (you should see the ratio of US soldiers to Australians) and what we are doing is very important for the future of the people living in Iraq.

I am currently in training to be a Comms Electronics Technician and have almost finished the course. If i get posted to certain places it is pretty likely that I will be deployed in a 3 - 6 month rotation of personnel in Iraq. Honestly I am scared shitless of not just having a simple 9 - 5 job at a raaf base somewhere safe like perth, but i am also pretty proud of the fact i would be involved in something which helps ensure the security of a free society such as ours. I think we should be behind our troops because if they dont have our support it destroys morale and sense of purpose. If you dont agree with it then fine, but keep in mind that it IS happening around us.

This forum has provided an extremely interesting discussion of peoples views and its good that a fairly large group of people can provide a mature and objective opinion. It also provided a couple of hours light reading.

Thanx guys,

Steve.

[Jesusdroveawestfield]

The only religion i can NOT stand ever in my life ever ever ever ever is Christianity and related religons. Anyone who believes in this religion has been brainwashed by their parents at a young age with all the BS that they force fed you. There is no backing for that religion. I have no problem with people who are Christian, i get along with them fine, but bring up your religion and you better look out!

rofl rofl rofl C,mon tell us how you really feel about it. Are you coming to
church with me on Sunday rofl rofl rofl rofl

Personally I prefer the the Hindu religion. I believe that we were all created by Tantor the eight armed elephant God.
But seriously, I was not brought up in a Christian home and certainly was never "brainwashed" I stood at the side of the bed and watched my father die and it changed my perspective on life and death forever. A month after that I had a very real encounter with God and have been a Christian ever since. I hear you about the catholics...boy are those poor buggers weighed down by religion. Dont make the mistake of confusing a relationship with God to religion. I have a friend from NZ who was stung by five box jellyfish off the coast of Mauritis ( spelling ? ) and was dead for 15 minutes. Woke up in the morque !!!! What he saw on the other side was amazing. Not trying to convert you, I fully respect your decisions to believe in whatever you want, just wanted to let you know that Christianity does not have to be about religious mumbo jumbo.

Cheers

[Jesusdroveawestfield]

by the way my mate has travelled the world ever since his experiance telling people what he saw they have just made a movie about it. I have free DVD's of it if anybody is interested. email me
jdstarion@msn.com ( I must change that to clubman something @ something :) )

[Darkelf]

Darryl, religion is a very deep and personal thing to a lot of people. Please don't mock other peoples religions/beliefs because you believe something different to them.

BTW the elephant god is Ganeesha and he didn't create the world Brahma did that. :)

[Jesusdroveawestfield]

I hope you were kidding ? if not I can't win can I ? I just said I respect everybodies right to believe what they want to believe. Just because I joked about the elephant God doesnt mean I was mocking them. I think there might be one or two jokes around about Jesus....yes ?
Anyway thanks for the tips. Got it now Ganeesha was the elephant God and Brahma made the world...was Brahma a bull ?

[scum]

we should all convert to Buddhism!! as far as i know budda was a man who died, never to come back, and he doesn’t have a 'hand of god'. sounds good to me.

[NachoMan]

You live, then you die.

Confuscious say; War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left.

[Project2501]

Just out of curiosity, JDAS, what was your defining religious moment?

I still believe religion is the opiate for the masses: it makes you feel better and that is it. But, hey, if it makes you happy believing in what you do then I wont be the one to tell you any different. Live and let live.

cheers

tom.

[Jesusdroveawestfield]

Apart from the fact that when I saw my father die ( I could tell you the exact moment his spirit left his body) it was like somebody flicked off a light switch. He went from being in there, to all of a sudden his body being just an empty vessel, a lump of meat. Have any of you ever seen anybody die ?
It is quite remarkable. Although this was not my defining moment it certainly gave me a VERY clear understanding that the spirit lives on and once left the body certainly exists somewhere in some form. When my friend was dead for 15 minutes he was exactly the same person when he was dead as when he was alive except he had no physical body. He was standing upright and did not even know he had died, he thought the doctors had just turned out the lights. He said it was so dark that he tried to see his hand in front of his face. He got a hell of a shock when his hand went right through his head :o :o
I also had a cousin who died last year ( massive heart attack 11 days prior to giving birth ). They revived her three times in the ambulance. She only got so far as feeling an amazing release and then seeing the light. They were able to bring her back before she got too far into the whole thing. Her baby did not make it and died in her husbands arms about 12 hours later.
I agree religion is an opiate for the masses but again I am not talking about religion. I am talking about a relationship and certainty that I have knowing who I am, why I am here and where I will be going. To get this certainty I had to do nothing, no prayers three times a day, no rosary beads, no chants, no vegetarianism, no worshipping the sabath nothing except the fact that one night driving home God came to me in the car in amazing and powerful way. A bit like electricity really, all the hair on my arms was standing on end. I knew it was God and at that moment said to him that I was His and I would do with my life whatever he wanted. This was my defining moment and I could tell you a few other stories that have happened in the 11 years since that prove without doubt that there is so much more to this than just living and dying full stop.
Anyway I have rambled on long enough. Only told you what happened to me because you asked.

Cheers

[WANTSOM]

Anyone who has ever experienced the death of a loved one or very close friend or family member, the experience definitely changes your views of where you are, why you are and who you are. Irrespective of whatever religion you follow or dont follow, the effect on your own "being" is profound. IMHO, if you are unaffected by it you are without soul.

People who experience NDE's usually come back with a markedly powerful view of the world and the true meaning of why we are all here.

For those of you that dont know Daz personally you could take the view he is VERY religious. In reality he is not. He has his beliefs and they are firm and true, just like him. He sees "his" God in the way that that makes sense for him and he respects people who see their own God in the same way.

I have been to Daryls house and while there is clear signs it is one that follows God, the feeling is one of a home and family that values love and friendship and welcomes those who have similiar human qualities.

So I guess my message is - dont judge him for his views and comments, but listen to someone who has been around a bit. The books and Uni lectures certainly have their valued place in the world but some people like Daryl and I come from backgrounds where those opportunities were not available and we learned from life experiences - as flawed and/or valuable as they were. We aint complaining, thats just the way it panned out. Life is like an apprenticeship, the UNI/TAFE stuff give you the background, theory and knowledge but the 'hands on' stuff is where you really learn what to do and how.

AND anyone who stores an original JA in the shed for his son to have when he is old enough to drive cant be bad hey :D

Thats my 2 cents worth.

[Darkelf]

I have experienced the death of a close family member and I totally agree with Daz with regard to his view that it is like a light being switched off. It is a life changing experience

I also believe in some form of after life although not necessarily in the form that christianity describes. I have experienced the presence of my father on a couple of occasions. (As has my step-mother) The most recent being saturday morning when he communicated with me.
It is a strange experience and not one easily explained.

I would say to those of you out there who find all this very hard to understand that until you have experienced a truly life changing experience please keep an open mind.